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Rasism impotriva romanilor - sa actionam!

Discussion in 'in Marea Britanie' started by crysya, May 30, 2009.

  1. rebecca_uk

    rebecca_uk Active Member

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    Silverfern is absolutely right. This is the reason why we started that project in the first place. However, people who have improved their work situation here have found it easier to turn their backs...

    It's a shame, given that there were certain stages, which, once followed, could have led to a positive result.
    But, once again, we are more concerned with what things will be regarded as, the general impression and, why not, some criticism here and there,because that really sets things going...

    Let me reiterate: I have nothing to gain out of this; I'm not a dependent and will obtain the Blue Card using other means.

    However, as Taranu stated, it is about our rights as EU citizens and about the discrepancies between the UK regulations of both the UKBA and DWP and what is actually stipulated in the EU Treaty. (second rate citizens? of course we are, no matter what we do, it's just a scar we have to bear because of certain not so well-behaved individuals)

    This is by no means a political matter...but an unfair interpretation and mistreatment.
     
  2. taranu

    taranu New Member

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    Asa cum am si aratat deja pe topicul respectiv, in principal este vorba despre informatii si reguli contradictorii pe care UKBA le furnizeaza/impune.

    Faptul ca o astfel de institutie isi permite sa mentina inca aceste informatii/reguli spune foarte mult despre cum se comporta UK in cadrul UE si cat valoreaza pentru regat Legea Europeana. Si ca sa fiu mai clar: Legea Europeana este superioara oricarei Legi nationale si are prioritate.
     
  3. rebecca_uk

    rebecca_uk Active Member

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    Macar stiu ca inca mai crezi in asta. E un inceput? Putem avea si o continuare?
     
  4. dst

    dst Member

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    Okay people, give me some specific objectives and ideas for how you want to pursue this.

    Saying you want to be treated like all other EU nationals is an aspiration, it is not an objective. The reality is you are subject to particular restrictions. These are perfectly legal and legitimate and so long as they exist you will be subject to some constraints. They are not imposed because you are Romanians, but because Romania joined the EU in 2007. Any country that joins now will be subject to something similar. There will likely be restrictions on Croatians when they join the EU.

    A campaign to overturn the restrictions is one thing, but it is different to one aimed at making the existing Regulations as smooth and efficient as possible. There is no reason why you cant pursue both - indeed you should - but you need to be clear about what you are trying to do right now.
     
  5. silverfern

    silverfern New Member

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    dst a scris:
    And what should I understand from this? That we are subject to restrictions, that's it and there's nothing we can do? Perfectly legal? Well, when some state institutions makes regulations, we could say it's legal, right, but there is an European law, and this law must be transposed in the member states law. And when you, as a member state make a regulation, you must be careful that the regulation respect the European law. From what I know, a right earned is a right earned, and nobody can restrict that right if it's already earned. So, if from 2007 till 2008 a Romanian dependant had the right to get a NINO without a blue card, why they restrict this right already earned? It was the same situation when they said that from January 2007 the Romanian students can work for up to 20 hours per week. Period. They didn't had the right to work full time during their vacation. They were restricting a right already earned, because before accesion a Romanian student had the right to work full time during vacation. They had to make an ammendment to ammendment, to ammendment... Why?
    You say that the restrictions are not imposed because we are Romanians, but because Romania joined EU in 2007. Wow! So 2007 must be a cursed year or something? They will impose similar restrictions for every country that joins EU from now on? Wow! Then what's the point of joining the EU now, and not joining after 3, or 5, or 7 years? Or is it because UK, like many other EU countries, need an emerging market to sell their products, to have more business opportunities, but protecting some of their lazy workers who could face competition and lose their jobs? And jobless workers are a pain in the ... for every government right? Oh yes! But this is politics right? Is quite the same as the UKIP who wants a place in European Parliament but they want UK out of EU. So why everybody say that UKIP is bad? They do what every other party do.
    So there are restrictions, every member state have the right to impose these restrictions. That's ok. But do we have the right to ask them to respect the laws, and simplify the law? Do we need to be lawyers to understand the law, or they must make the law clear, and easy to understand?
     
  6. taranu

    taranu New Member

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    Bine-ai venit in club Silver :) vad ca ai inteles exact situatia, dar nu cred ca lui DST trebuie sa-i ceri socoteala :D
     
  7. rebecca_uk

    rebecca_uk Active Member

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    Silverfern e de demult in club si constant pe deasupra, iar pledoaria lui era candva impartasita de mai multe persoane.
    In timp insa...
     
  8. dst

    dst Member

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    Silverfern, read my post again.

    What I asked was that you - and the other people that are contributing here - set out some specific objectives.

    You need to be clear about what you want to achieve before you develop an action plan.

    I am not saying there is nothing you can do. I am saying I need to know what you want to do.

    I have also said that objectives can be multi-layered. Trying to overturn the restrictions is one level. This is ultimately what you want but it exists at the level of aspiration because it is very dependent on the political context.

    A second level of objective is to make the Regulations operate as smoothly and efficiently as possible. You rightly highlighted amendments that have been made to these to illustrate that change is possible. It is.

    But these changes came about because a specific problem was identified, and a reason or requirement to make these changes was accepted by Government. In the example of working restrictions on students an error in law had been made. Once this was pointed out, the law was changed.

    It is also critical to understand the political context in which you are trying to realise your objectives. These external constraints will shape how you go about achieving your goals.

    If I were to make the argument 'change these restrictions because they are stopping some people from working', government will turn round and say 'good, they were intended to stop some people from working. The laws have achieved their objective.'

    If I were to make the argument 'these restrictions cost the UK taxpayer several million pounds each year and it would actually be to the benefit of the UK economy to let these workers in' then you are giving government a reason to think again about what they have done and to rebalance different policy objectives.

    So I ask again, what specifically do you want to achieve? Identify the problems and issues here. List them for me.
     
  9. silverfern

    silverfern New Member

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    Well dst, I read your post in the first time too. I agree with you partially. That's why I just pointed out some ideas (see the quote) that I think you're wrong about. You can't say that Romanians have restriction, not because they are Romanians, but because they joined EU in 2007. It's not a valid argument. Ok, maybe I was carried away a little bit, but I think this would help some people understand some "political tricks".

    And again, I would tell you something that every politician fails to understand. Our action should not be adapted to the political context, the political context, and the politicians, should adapt to the people's needs. But that's another discussion.

    Now, the "I agree" part :laugh:
    You said you want a list of clear objectives. Well, I try to start one and it will remain open.

    There is an issue about the image of Romanians in the press. We (re)started to do something through ReAct!(for those who still can't find it it's here http://www.reactgroup.org.uk/ ). This is one way to react. Another way is to ask the embassy and the foreign affairs to take an official position. We did the ReAct! part, and asked the authorities to react only to the UKIP problem. Ok, maybe we should treat the cases one by one. So, the next move would be asking them to react about the article from Dailly Express. Why we ask the embassy and the foreign affairs? Because is their responsibility to make sure the image of Romania abroad is an accurate one.

    Another issue is the case of the dependants who can't get NINO without blue card. I explained before why this is wrong. The action? We should ask HO(they deal with the Immigration Act), DWP(they are dealing with the NINO), Romanian embassy an foreign affairs(they must offer support for their citizens), and European Commission(they issued the 38/2004 directive and they must know how this act is respected or not in the member states).

    There would be a question about the right to work in UK for A2 nationals. We all want the restrictions gone. But if we want to consider the "political context" too, I think we should ask to be treated the same way the A8 national are treated. It's ideal to exist only one category of European citizens, but maybe sometimes is better to make small steps then nothing. Ok, we ask them to treat us the same way as they treat A8. But why? And this "why" was a big problem on the last year's petition. Here are some answers: it's confusing to have to deal with so many categories of European citizens, even for HO officers(see the contradictory answers you get from them). It's confusing for those from DWP, for employers. I mean what's a home worker? A british worker, a EU worker (and if so what kind of EU worker?). You can hire from outside EU only if you don't find a worker in EU(not only in UK as the government try to make people believe), but in EU some workers have no right to work, so this is like a huge mass of fog in everybody's head. The costs? Of course there are costs, starting from printing different application forms, different guides, training HO officers for every kind of European citizen. And not to mention that a European citizen, if he can't find a job in UK, he can return very easy back home, an immigrant from India, Pakistan, Africa, once he get a work permit, if he lose his job it would find it more difficult to buy a plane ticket back home isn't it? So what's happening to them? Working illegally, committing crimes... Should I continue?

    I'll stop here now, maybe other people have their ideas too and want to share them. And I hope that very soon we will take the next step. Oh, and I hope that "we" doesn't mean just two or three people.
     
  10. rebecca_uk

    rebecca_uk Active Member

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  11. dst

    dst Member

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    The UK imposed no restrictions on the A8 countries. This led to large scale immigration, which created challenges for the public services and populist political pressures. The context of debate changed between 2004 and 2007 and so a different decision was taken.

    Had Romania joined the EU in 2004 then Romanians would not be subject to worker restrictions here.

    Most other EU nations imposed restrictions on the A8 states in 2004. Most of these also impose restrictions on Romanians now. Are they discriminating against Romanians by imposing these conditions?

    The key point here is that you are talking about British politicians. They have to prioritise what they consider to be the interests of the UK as a whole, not just the demands of a few Romanians. Politicians are adapting to the needs of the people as a whole as they perceive them. The reality is you are dealing with the UK political context.

    The ReAct! project is something I created. It was designed as a vehicle to express the concerns of the Romanian community about grossly unfair media distortions and make it easy for people to get involved. Its purpose was to sit alongside other actions which official bodies can and should take, not to be the only avenue for these.

    There is no reason why you should not complain to the Embassy again about media portrayals. UKIP are not a media organisation so concerns about what they have done is logically distinct from what the press does.

    What action do you expect the Embassy to take about the Daily Express article?

    It is also worth remembering that there are limits on what the Embassy can and should do as a public body. I understand that you might want the Embassy to do certain things, but that does not mean these are its actual responsibilities, or that it has the budget or capability to perform these tasks. This is one of the reasons it is so important that there is an independent Romanian community organisation in the UK. I have my views on why one has failed to develop.

    Lets break this one down as well. The spouse of a Romanian national who is exercising Treaty Rights does indeed have no worker restrictions placed on them, but as I argued previously, this is a dependent right.

    In order for them to work they have to be able to demonstrate both the existence of a relationship and that their spouse is exercising Treaty Rights.

    So, if you go into a Job Centre Plus and say 'I am married to a Romanian national who is self-employed, give me a NINO', their response will be 'prove it.'

    Do you object to having to prove this?

    At this stage you can either provide a registration certificate, or you can provide the evidence that is required in order to obtain that registration certificate. The standard of proof is the same. The problem is familiarity and the ability to interpret the information presented.

    The clerk here may have never seen a Romanian marriage license before or he has never seen the complex documentation needed to prove that your spouse is self-employed. He asks his supervisor about this, his supervisor calls the Home Office, the Home Office say the Romanian does have a right here in some circumstances, but the evidence they have provided to you might not be sufficient to demonstrate they have met the standards. They take the information they send it away and if the evidence is sufficient then after a few weeks you get the NINO.

    Yes, the Job Centre staff could be better trained, and this is indeed a project the Embassy should pursue, but guess what, the UK does not revolve around the 100,000 or so Romanians that live here, or the 5000 people that might be the spouses of Romanian self-employed.

    If it is going to take 9 months to train all Job Centre staff to recognise these documents, or if you can hand them a registration certificate which they already understand, then the rational choice for the individual is to be prepared and get a registration certificate.

    I agree. Your task is to convince the government, not me.
     
  12. rebecca_uk

    rebecca_uk Active Member

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    If I remember clearly, getting that Registration Certificate(RC) was an issue as well.
    I'm saying this because there were cases when spouses could not obtain a RC without having NIN.(which is a vicious circle,given the difficulties mentioned above). Some people were refused RC, because they had been working previous to getting a RC. Yet, the law states differently. This makes it impossible for them to apply for jobs, as the employers are told in specific guidances that Romanian nationals need to have RCs. All the details are here:

    http://www.romani-online.co.uk/forum/ut ... ina-3.html

    In my opinion, this is where we should take action. The question is: can we do something about it? If so, what?

    We started something, but it came to a sudden stop, I've already stated the reasons and they could be summarized as lack of involvement and the reluctance of some members to involve others "in the same boat".

    Perhaps I misunderstood, I apologise if I did and I'm willing to resume.However, I can't do it on my own. In fact, I wasn't alone: Taranu initiated the topic, Silverfern has been pursuing it alongside with other issues and I got involved myself simply because I care. Are there any more people who care and can voice this out? I sincerely hope this care doesn't just last until they sorted out their work conditions...

    Therefore, please, can everybody have a look here on http://www.romani-online.co.uk/forum/ut ... ina-3.html and maybe by working together as a community we can work this out to everyone's advantage? Thank you.
     
  13. negrutxa

    negrutxa New Member

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    What a constructive debate ! I love it! It's like a brainstorming ! :woohoo:

    DST, the real problem is that there is a chain of unnecessary steps that cost the Government time and money and also cost the Romanian community. I am not adding stress as that is another cost that has to go through NHS!

    A self employed does not require a yellow certificate, that is OptionaL. Their only duty is to register with Inland Revenue and to make sure they completely understand this status. Home Office can not grant permission to a self employed to work, therefore yellow certificate is an unnecessary step, useless and confusing ! Many self employed may think they are entitled to apply for a blue certificate after an year ! Not true!

    When the dependent goes to NINO interview he/she is being asked how did he/she earn the right to work in UK. After they explain the spouse is a SE, next step they are being asked for the blue certificate to prove that ! The dependent is being given a blue certificate by HO only if the SE has got a yellow one (useless colorful piece of paper). The law stipulates that the SE is entitled to yellow piece of paper and same is the dependent to the blue piece of paper, but this is not a MUST. There is an obvious difference between MAY and MUST, so like everyone else you choose the most efficient quicker less time consuming method ! The May Option !

    As a conclusion, the dependent has to ask the spouse to apply for the yellow certif., wait for that to come through ( 1-2 months), apply to HO for the blue certif. (1-3 months) and then grab all the docs, make an app to NINO and have the interview again. In my scenario, the Government has wasted money on printing yellow and blue certificates, processing all the data, sending them over, staff wages and training and all other office expenses. What else do they get out of this? Taxpayers are delayed up to at least 3 months to pay their national contributions.

    They are not really business focused in this economical situation, are they? :lol:
     
  14. dst

    dst Member

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    negrutxa a scris:
    Yes indeed! And let me be clear here, I am not attacking people for their views or trying to dissuade them from taking action. Far from it.

    The purpose here is to try to uncover what the actual problems are, and then to be realistic about what action can be taken, and by whom.



    As Rebecca has said, above, perhaps these discussions are best conducted in another thread.
     
  15. silverfern

    silverfern New Member

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    Dst, I hope my english is not so bad so you couldn't understand what I say. I don't want to convince you. I just wanted to tell you that you may be wrong at some point, and I just wanted to give an answer to your question. Remember?
    I don't want to discuss how the politicians(british or not) are adapting to the needs of the people. They are adapting their speeches so that when someone has a problem, that person should think that they understand him, but they are not solving his problem, not if they don't have something to gain. And I think you know that better than me. But again, this is another discussion, maybe on another topic we could take it further.

    Maybe rebecca and negrutxa explained it better than me.

    Negrutxa, the self employed and the spouse can apply at the same time on the same application. The question is, why the dependant must wait about 2 months for that registration certificate, if he/she doesn't have restrictions to work, because without NINO they can't work legally. Is this a way to tell us "Break the law!", a way of increasing the number of "crimes" made by Romanians?

    And with this I hope we could end this discussion and start to focus on the next step we should take.
     
  16. dst

    dst Member

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    I urgently need someone to get a copy of 'youth and concerns' survey commissioned by the Romanian Ministry of Youth and sports

    http://www.gov-sport.ro/

    I think the survey will be in Romanian :)
     
  17. crismarten

    crismarten New Member

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  18. negrutxa

    negrutxa New Member

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    Salutare tututor


    As vrea sa va ofer putin feedback in legatura cu scrisorile ce au fost trimise Ambasadei de la Londra si Ministrului de Externe de la Bucuresti in aceasta saptamana referitoare la acuzatiile partidului UKIP asupra romanilor.

    Vom primi un raspuns oficial de la MAE cat de curand si vom publica raspunsul lor pentru a informa intreaga comunitate despre actiunile care se intreprind.

    De asemenea, as vrea sa va rog, chiar sa va invit sa sesizati personal IMEDIAT, fie prin telefon, email, cum doriti, Ambasada noastra la Londra cand mai gasiti vreun articol discriminatoriu la adresa comunitatii romanesti din UK. Puteti cere si alte informatii pe care le considerati importante, bineinteles. Cei de la Ambasada ne-au comunicat ca sunt deschisi oricarei cai de comunicare cu noi si asteapta sesizarile noastre oricand. Sunt platiti si trimisi de la Bucuresti pentru a servi interesele comunitatii noastre.


    Cristina-Narcisa Nita
    Press Attaché
    Embassy of Romania in the UK

    press@roemb.co.uk

    Tel.: 0044 20 7937 9669
    Fax: 0044 20 7937 8069


    Va asteptam sa impartasiti cu noi pe forum sesizarile voastre si raspunsul primit de la Ambasada. Bineinteles, si noi putem inainta alte sesizari in numele comunitari ROMANi ONLiNE.

    In acelasi timp, nu uitati de ReACT si de asemenea, putem sesiza individual organizatia/oficialitatile respective.

    Numai impreuna vom reusi sa ne facem respectati !

    Un weekend placut in continuare


    N.
     
  19. silverfern

    silverfern New Member

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    Ei, da... parca incepe sa se miste ceva? :)
    Poate ar trebui sa punem datele de contact si undeva unde sa fie mult mai vizibile?
    Ma alatur si eu (daca mai e nevoie) rugamintilor de a sesiza imediat orice articol discriminatoriu.
     
  20. negrutxa

    negrutxa New Member

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    Raspuns oficial din partea MAE


     

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