32 C
London
Friday, August 12, 2022
£1 = 0.00RON / €inf / $0.00

Help, interpretare mail HO re ILR

Discussion in 'ARHIVA' started by motanik, Jun 11, 2007.

  1. motanik

    motanik New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2009
    Messages:
    2,391
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Vreau sa va cer ajutorul in interpretarea acestui mail primit de la HO, in urma cererii mele de confirmare ca pt ILR nu e nevoie de documentatie pe 5 ani daca anul trecut am primit FLR si deja au documentele pt ultimii 4 ani.

    Raspunsul ca nuca in perete, ce intreb eu si ce mi se raspunde. Iata:

    Thank you for your enquiry.

    Please be advised that if you wish to work in the UK on a self-employed basis, you have a right of establishment under EU law.

    You may obtain and complete application form BR1, in order to obtain a self-employed Registration Certificate. This will confirm that you are an EEA national exercising a treaty right as a self-employed person, however this right does not extend to working as an employee in the UK.

    If you have been working in the UK on a Self-Employed Basis, but you now wish to work as an employee, you will need to complete application form BR3, in order to obtain a Worker Accession Card.

    Application forms are available at: http://www.workingintheuk.gov.uk/workin ... forms.html .

    For further information, as it becomes available, please click on the link below:

    http://www.workingintheuk.gov.uk/workin ... abour.html

    If your ECAA visa expires after 1st January 2007 and you have not completed five years in this category, you cannot apply to extend it under the Immigration Rules. You will not be entitled to apply for Indefinite Leave to Remain under the Immigration Rules if you did not extend your visa before 1st January 2007. Therefore, if you continue to be self-employed, you will qualify for Permanent Residence on 1st January 2012.

    If you were granted an extension of this visa before 1st January 2007, when you complete a total of five years in the UK as a self-employed person, you will be entitled to apply for Indefinite Leave to Remain under the Immigration Rules. In this case, the period of time spent in the UK as a self-employed person after 1st January 2007 can be counted towards the five years.



    Lasand la o parte toate paragrafele in care imi explica ceva ce nu ma intereseaza, avand in vedere ca i-am mentionat datele exacte ale celor 3 vize ce s-au intins deja pe o perioada de 5 ani ce expira in August, ultimul paragraf incearca sa ma lamureasca ceva. Ca doar ce am petrecut in UK dupa 1 ianuarie 2007 se numara pt cei 5 ani necesari pt ILR?? Sau si ce am petrecut dupa 1 ian se adauga anilor deja petrecuti aici?

    Va rog sa ma ajutati cu interpretarea, o iau razna. -strike-
     
  2. dst

    dst Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2009
    Messages:
    134
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    This statement from the Home Office appears to contradict the view of the European Commission and is potentially a breach of the UK's obligations in law.

    The Commission takes the view that lawful residence includes any periods of lawful residence, even before the Directive came into force and even before the person concerned became an EU national.

    Thus an person who has completed 5 years with lawful residence, both under national law and following accession, under the Directive, will qualify.

    The problem is that this has not actually been tested before the national courts. However, motanik, it might be that your case could be used to challenge this.
     
  3. motanik

    motanik New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2009
    Messages:
    2,391
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    DST, do you understand any Romanian?
    The thing is I didn't even ask for what they answered. I only wanted to know whether my application for ILR should include documents covering the whole period of 5 years or the last one year is enough, since they already have some of my documents following the application for FLR I submitted last year.

    However, I did get an extension of visa last year so would qualify for ILR this August but I don't really understand the meaning of the last sentence. The period spent here after 1 Jan 2007 counts toward the 5 years needed for ILR as in together with what was spent before 1 Jan? Or what?

    Brr, I am thinking of giving up the ILR as I don't want to get old in this country anyway but the hassle they make us go through is unbelievable. -wh-
     
  4. dst

    dst Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2009
    Messages:
    134
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    My Romanian language knowledge is very very weak and certainly not to be trusted in interpreting specific detailed questions. Thanks for putting the question in English for me.

    As I understand it from the HO letter, they seem to be saying that the ECAA scheme came to an end with Romania's accession to the EU therefore new visas will not be granted under it. Provided you have extended your ECAA visa before 1 January - which you say you did - any period in the spend in the UK before 1 January counts toward the 5 year ILR requirement and so does any period after it. So yes, the period spend after 1 January 2007 will count toward the 5 years in your case.

    Other Romanians may have problems, however, if they did not extend their ECAA before 1 January. The HO is suggesting that they have reset the clock for these people and for whom time spent in the UK before 1 January as a self-employed will no longer count toward the ILR 5 years. This, however, may be contestable under EU law.
     
  5. motanik

    motanik New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2009
    Messages:
    2,391
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    That's right, I understand the same thing but I really consider it a nonsense, people who have spent the last 3-4 years here must pretend they have only started their journey towards the ILR.
     
  6. goddess

    goddess New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    370
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Mota , cred ca mai razna ca tine o iau eu soon, tu eshti safe, eu nu shi probabil nici multzi altzii in aceeashi situatzie.
    Hai sa vezi ce am priceput eu:

    If your ECAA visa expires after 1st January 2007 and you have not completed five years in this category, you cannot apply to extend it under the Immigration Rules. You will not be entitled to apply for Indefinite Leave to Remain under the Immigration Rules if you did not extend your visa before 1st January 2007. Therefore, if you continue to be self-employed, you will qualify for Permanent Residence on 1st January 2012.

    Daca viza ECAA expira dupa 1ian 2007 shi nu s-au completat cei 5 ani in aceeashi categorie, nu ai dreptul de a aplica ptr ILR.Deci, te potzi califica ptr Permanent Residence la 1 ian 2012.

    If you were granted an extension of this visa before 1st January 2007, when you complete a total of five years in the UK as a self-employed person, you will be entitled to apply for Indefinite Leave to Remain under the Immigration Rules. In this case, the period of time spent in the UK as a self-employed person after 1st January 2007 can be counted towards the five years.

    Daca tzi s-a oferit extensie de viza inainte de 1 ian 2007, atunci la completarea celor 5 ani in calitate de self-employed, ai dreptul sa aplici ptr ILR.In acest caz, timpul petrecut in UK ca self-employed pana la data de 1 ian 2007 se va lua in considerare in cadrul celor 5 ani necesari.
    Ideea e ca tu eshti ok, atata timp cat tu ai obtzinut FLR(extensie de viza inainte de 1 ian 2007) te incadrezi in cerintzele lor.
    Eu una mai putzin, ptr ca mie viza de 3 ani mi-a expirat pe 15 feb 2007, ca atare n-am avut cum sa cer FLR inainte de 1 ian 2007 shi se pare ca nici nu mai conteaza cei 5 ani ai mei p-aici ca self-employed shi nici taxe platite shi nici nimic altceva.I`m speechless.

    ps: btw, numai raspuns la intrebarea ta nu e.
     
  7. motanik

    motanik New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2009
    Messages:
    2,391
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Am multi prieteni in situatia ta, nu cred ca e in regula, doar nu ati fost invizibili pana in 1 ian!!
    Nu stiu daca sa imi mai bat capul sau nu, pe noi nu ne mai prind astia mai mult de 2-3 ani pe aici, asadar nu stiu daca sa mai aplic pt rezidenta lor sau nu, pt ca daca vor iar 5 ani de documente, eu din 2002 nu le mai am caci regula veche pt ILR spunea ca e nevoie de documente pt ultimii 3, nu 5 ani. Si nici nu am de gand sa arunc bani la banci pt copii la bank statements si la contabil pt financial statements, din moment ce oricum le-am trimis la timpul respectiv, totul le-a trecut prin mana din moment ce ne-au dat vizele de fiecare data.

    -strike- -strike- -strike-
     
  8. goddess

    goddess New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    370
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    La tine mare bataie de cap nu artrebui sa fie, te incadrezi perfect in cerintze.Cat despre cerintza de documentatzie pe ultimii 5 ani, mi se pare o aberatzie(au fost trimise la timpul potrivit!) ca de altfel shi situatzia in care ma aflu eu shi multzi altzii.
    Eu personal , ash zice sa nu renuntzi, e dreptul tau, tzi l-ai cashtigat chiar daca-tzi foloseshte sau nu(you never know) . -strike-
    Consider tot atat de bine ca nu se pot "spala pe manutze" nici de noi ceilaltzi doar ptr faptul ca ne-a expirat viza de 3 ani dupa 1 ian (nu noi am ales!!!), shi chiar daca am incercat sa aplic inainte de 1 ian (pe baza unei presimtziri ca se va ajunge aici) nu mi-au primit aplicatzia.So, din partea mea(cu rezultat victorios sau nu) vor primii batai de cap!
    E dreptul meu! :mad: :mad: :mad:
     
  9. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Sorry ca intervin, nu vreau sa creez mai multe confuzii...

    Mota tu esti safe din ceea ce au zis ei in email. Asta stii deja ca ti-a confirmat si DST. Nu este corect fata de ceilalti, printre care si Goddess si altii, dar tu esti safe.

    Parerea mea este ca se merita sa mergi mai departe pentru rezidenta si de ce nu cetatenie? Este un drept pe care l-ai castigat si nu se stie niciodata ce vremuri vin? De ce sa te frece altii la cap inca o data? Nu ai avut destul de la ei? Nu te lasa.

    In legatura cu documentele, scrie-le o scrisoare, in care le explici impersonal ca documentatia este deja la Home Office, mai da-le o data numere de referinte din anii anteriori cand le-ai trimis documentele. Si asteapta raspuns scris doar la scrisoarea asta. trimite-o special delivery si urmareste cand a ajuns. poti include si un plic pre-paid si adreseaza scrisoarea unui manager din cadrul departamentului, sau trimite si CC la manager sau de ce nu unui MP-ului.

    Si atunci vezi cu ce raspuns vin ei.

    bafta multa!

    Imi pare rau pentru ceilalti care nu se incadreaza, dar e timpul sa chalenge situatia asa cum a sugerat DST.
    -sunny-
     
  10. motanik

    motanik New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2009
    Messages:
    2,391
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Nicole, cred ca am sa trimit aplicatia cu ce am, plus copii ale scrisorilor de la ei la primirea fiecarei vize (ca doar vizele nu ni le-au dat pe ochi frumosi, au avut documentatie pt ele nu?) plus o scrisoare in care sa explic de ce nu cred ca mai e necesar sa trimit acte vechi.

    Multumesc tuturor pt raspunsuri, bafta tuturor!
     
  11. motanik

    motanik New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2009
    Messages:
    2,391
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
  12. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Un tips: cand scrii acea cover letter, care este o idee excelelnta, nu scrie ca nu crezi tu ca e necesar. Scrie ceva de genul ca : gasiti incluse documentele aditionale, sau in completatrea celor care deja sunt trmise la HO sau in pastrare la HO, sau celor care deja au fost obiectul ultimei extinderi de viza.
    Nu le da posibilitatea sa iti trimita iar un raspuns tipizat si care nu are legatura cu cazul tau. Trateaza scrisoarea ca si cum e absolut normal si legal si la mintea cocosului ca tu trebuie sa trimiti doar completatrea actelor pe ultimii 5 ani, nu intregul lot.

    Cel putin asta e parerea mea.Eu asa as face.

    bafta multa -sunny-
     
  13. casper

    casper New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Motanik, aplica cu documentele pe care le ai din ultimii 5 ani (si daca nu le mai ai pe toate da-le motive intemeiate pt. care acestea lipsesc din aplicatie), nu va mai complicati sa va certati cu ei ca sunt incompetenti si va prelungiti asteptarea. Dupa cum au spus si fetele, bine ca esti safe! Mult noroc!
    NU pot accepta asa ceva! Nu este corect asa cum a spus si DST! Oricine sta pe teritoriul UK mai mult de 5 ani are dreptul sa aplice pentru IRL, atunci nu vad de ce ar face discriminarea asta. Mai vorbisem deaspre chestia asta si credeam ca fusese doar o neintelegere.
    -------
    DST, thanks a lot for your interest. I am in the situation you earlier described and I think this is a serious issue that needs to be addressed somehow.
    Why do we have to pretend that we didn't actually exist before our country joined EU, when all this time I paid all my contributions and taxes to the Government?
    Aren’t they depriving me of rights that I lawfully have in Britain?
    What do you suggest we should do?
     
  14. lilac

    lilac New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    casper,
    eu am o scrisoare de la HO in care mi se spune clar ca, chiar daca nu am aplicat pt ultima viza de 1 an inainte de 2007 pt aplica pt ilr la sfarsitul a 5 ani de self.tu in ce situatie esti?
     
  15. razvan1980

    razvan1980 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2009
    Messages:
    289
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    hi guys,

    For those of you who are not exactly up-to-date with how the Home Office will proceed with applications for ILR as self-employed under the ECAA please go to :

    http://londra.mae.ro/index.php?lang=ro&id=20479

    personally though I find it arbitrary to decide that those who had at least a visa extension meaning the 3-year visa will be eligible to apply for ILR AFTER 1ST OF JANUARY 2007. Why are these ones in a better position than those who had just started in business under the ECAA had a only a month or two to apply for an extension? The argument that can be made is that they had not been ESTABLISHED in business in the UK at1st of january but still it is arbitrary, unreasonable and unfair.

    In relation to the documentation they ask for, I do not think they ask for the impossible. As this is an application for permanent residence you have to send all the documents that proved you have been established in business successfully irrespective of what you may have sent in before as part of other applications. the caseworker should have all th relevant documents to be able to take a quick and thorough decision.

    But I think this is not a reason to freak out. It's good all of us are eligible to apply for ILR. So be glad and enjoy it

    My question for DST is who is going to provide the funds for a possible judicial review for this discriminatory decision for eligibility towards ILR after Romania's accession to the EU? I would be interested in a challenging the Home Office.
    I look forward to your comments and suggestions

    thanks

    Razvan
     
  16. casper

    casper New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Pai sunt in situatia ta, obtinusem viza de trei ani (imi expira abia in ianuarie 2008), trebuia sa mai stau un an si apoi sa aplic pentru IRL , dar din scrisoarea primita de Motanik nu se intelege ca mai avem dreptul sa aplicam, decat in 2012.
    Tocmai de aceea am spus mai devreme ca ajunsesem la concluzia din ultimele discutii de la "No indefinite pentru cei cu viza de 3 ani" ca vom putea si noi aplica pentru IRL, dar raspunsul acordat lui Motanik contrazice cu totul asta.
     
  17. lilac

    lilac New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    casper daca e nevoie eu o voi lua de la capat cu scrisorile si emailurile, ami alesca eu am in mometul de fata 2 documente oficiale din 2 surse diferite care specifica clar ca aplicatia ptilr ani poate fi facuta dupa 5 ani de self, indiferent daca ai sau nu viza aia suplimentara
     
  18. razvan1980

    razvan1980 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2009
    Messages:
    289
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    casper eu am mers pana in panzele albe cand a fost neintlegerea cu privire la ILR si am deschis topicul no indefinite pt cei cu viza de 3 ani. Din comunicarile pe care le-am primit una e o scrisoare semnata de insusi ministrul imigrarii Liam Byrne in care specifica cat se poate de clar ca putem aplica pt ILR si nu mai pot sa ne dea o extensie de un an pt ca au sters regulile cu privire la vize odata ce am intrat in UE. Deci putem fi self-employed de acum incolo sub legea UE insa deoarece am fost self inainte si am avut cel putin o extensie avem dreptul sa aplicam pt ILR. nu stiu de ce se chinuie unii sa creeze mai multa confuzie decat claritate. eu cred ca e foarte clar ai viza de 3 ani - ai primit o extensie-poti aplica de ILR.
     
  19. cristians

    cristians New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Now this is a very interesting thread! I have 3 points to make / ask:

    1. DST, could you please let us know which particular EU directive regulates this aspect? I would quite like to give it a read (or at least try to ;-) ).

    2. If indeed the new HO rules are in breach of this EU directive, which might well be the case, is there a fairly straightforward way to "inform" (read, complain about) the European Commission about this (potential) abuse? Maybe some pressure from the top could be beneficial in encouraging the HO to meet its EU obligations? Also if this is the case, a letter coming from the representatives of the Romanian community sent to the HO might also be beneficial?

    3. I'm not 100% sure, but I seem to remember reading (at the time) that for the A8 countries the period spent legally by their citizens in the UK prior to their ascension was actually counting as "exercising a treaty right" and as such the A8 citizens were able to use it in order to apply under the EEA rules rather than having to go through the normal ILR channels (i.e. the SET(0) form)?
    If this is the case, can't this be also attacked from another angle too (i.e. discrimination)?

    DST (and everyone else of course) what do you think?
     
  20. dst

    dst Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2009
    Messages:
    134
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    To answer CristianS, the Directive in questions is 2004/38/EC specifically Article 16 (1) which provides that "Union citizens who have resided legally for a continuous period of five years in the host Member State shall have the right of permanent residence there. This right shall not be subject to the conditions provided for in Chapter III."

    I am aware of specific correspondece with the Commission in which they express the view that lawful residence includes any periods of lawful residence, even before the Directive came into force and even before the person concerned became an EU national.

    As said before, only the relevant Court can give an authoritative interpretation of the Treaty, so ideally this point would have to be tested in Court - and the proceedings of the Court can take a loooooooooooong time.

    Privately funding such proceedings could be expensive, although for the right test case legal aid could be available. Razvan, I think this answers your point - I don't know how it would be funded

    I will also add here that I am not a lawyer, and although I do know people in various law firms I do not have specific links with any law firm. I derive no financial benefit from this going to court.

    As to your second point, there can be other non-judicial ways to exert pressure on the Home Office but this has to be done very strategically. What I am saying is that just writing letters of complaint is not the best response. I do have some thoughts on the matter but they are not yet developed in a way that can be made public.
     

Share This Page