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Roamnii si ID-urile in UK

Discussion in 'INFORMATII UTILE' started by annie, Nov 25, 2008.

  1. dst

    dst Member

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    I say no such thing.

    I have said that the scope of the UK scheme is different and so an ID card issued in another country would not meet the requirements of the British plan. At no point have I argued in favour either of the ID Card scheme or the proposed technology behind it. Both are flawed.
     
  2. alana123

    alana123 New Member

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    Forgive me DST, as I understood initially that you oppose it. However you did seam to contradict yourself. Is what I understood and if I got it wrong then it is not my fault but of what I read you wrote. Perhaps you could express your point of view in a better way so we could all understand it.
    Although I knew you are against the ID card and it's technology because you mention it a lot I didn't quite get it why you had to say it'll be better than a Ro ID card or of any other EU ID for that matter! That's where the discrimination comes from.

    Weather it'll be better or worse I do not care! I am not arguing that but the fact that we can be asked to go through the same process as any other non EU foreigner in this country and that clearly there is a major difference between how we as Eastern European are treated in this country than lets say Germans or French etc... That's what I strongly object to in the first place. I couldn't care less if all EU citizens which reside in the UK would have to have this ID made, or especially if the british people would have it too, but I would care a great deal if only we the latest 10 EU member states have to have it and the non EU as well!
    I believe we are all equal regardless of where we demographically originate from and we should all be treated equal. Nobody is better or worse. That's what I stand for!
     
  3. dst

    dst Member

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    At no point have I said the UK card is better, I have said only that it is different.
     
  4. alana123

    alana123 New Member

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    I agree you didn't say better but different! I also am grateful you oppose it but I see you don't oppose it for the same reasons we would. And that’s the reason why I gathered by arguing the case of it being "different" in other words your assumption was it'll be "better".
    However, thanks for clarifying your point of view and also for taking an interest for our community and for trying to help us.
     
  5. annie

    annie New Member

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    DST, firstly you haven't disappointed me - just have not answered my question - I wasn't asking you whether you are British or not that is obvious - I was asking you where do you originate from - it seems that you are not English born and that is clear by your style of writing. I'm glad that the the administrators have asked you to discuss political issues - I'm not entirely convinced that you are the right person to submit to HO issues that Romanians have, but that's another matter.

    Coming back to the earlier argument - I am not objecting to the issue of ID card because it inconveniences me that is completely misunderstood - perhaps you might have trouble in reading my arguments. I don't need to as I am British and I don't even hold a Romanian ID - it was a topic of discussion and I was inviting others to share their comments and feelings on the matter. I am opposing to the ID full stop and will continue to do so. Considering that I work for the constabulary I would point out that I am fully aware that all those who live in one state, in this case in UK are expected to conform to the UK laws. I do object to the way they are passed. I have every right to question the jurisdiction of one's country of residence especially when certain legislations could affect me - it's called democracy, freedom of speech and in this case freedom of expression. I also have the right to question your implication and reason behind this argument especially when you have shown such an interest - to what purpose? what exactly do you gain by this? I am beginning to feel that perhaps you work for the HO and that's how your involvement into this forum is more than just a passing comment. If that is the case it might also explain why I get the impression that you seem to want to have the last word, most civil servants believe they know everything.
     
  6. dst

    dst Member

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    If I respond to points made on this thread it has been to challenge flawed logic or factual inaccuracies. Should these be allowed to pass without comment then it is possible people could be misled about the scope and intent of the proposed UK ID card scheme. The issue of ID cards is too important to let such matters slide. This is the sole reason for my involvement in this thread.

    On the matter of the suitability of Romanian ID cards I note that in the fourth post in this thread you specifically addressed me with: “My question is why is it necessary to get another ID card say for Romanian nationals when they already have one - why is that ID card not enough???

    I answered this question by pointing out the differences between UK and Romanian ID cards. If a Romanian ID card and a UK ID card contain different information, then a Romanian ID card cannot be a substitute for a British ID card.

    I appreciate that English is not your first language, but you are confusing jurisdiction - the right to make laws and administer those laws within a territory - with the process by which laws are made, and the content of those laws. Questioning jurisdiction and challenging particular laws that might be passed in a jurisdiction are two different things. I am keen to see Romanians be more involved in the political process here, and in particular to campaign against the restrictions on Romanian workers here.

    The Home Office have sometimes consulted me and asked my opinion on issues facing the Romanian community as a result of the worker restrictions, but I do not work for the Home Office.

    It is as a result of my involvement at the political level that I have the knowledge to offer occasional bits of guidance to Romanians in their dealings with the Home Office. I do not, have not, and never will seek payment for this. I am also very clear about the limits of my involvement here. I cannot offer detailed case by case advice to people. I will highlight to people the pathways through which they can take action and involve an MP in their case. It is by involving MPs in these cases that you can demonstrate to them the inequities and inconsistencies in the worker restrictions and so build a case for why these restrictions should be removed. This is my primary interest. I also do this on a voluntary basis.

    Lastly, I would suggest that you exercise caution in making unsupported statements about me, my identity, or intentions in contributing to this forum. If your knowledge of the law is as great as you imply, you will realise you are already on shaky legal ground.
     
  7. annie

    annie New Member

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    DST - I don't take very kindly to threats and I think it's best that we leave it here - as for your identity what are you hiding? - you could be a terrorist as far as I am concerned so I would like to know to whom I communicate - I perfectly understand English and certainly I fully understand jurisdiction - the fact that I look at issues objectively it is clear from the beginning that it bothers you - and like I said - in my previous thread you obviously are the type that has to have the last word. Remember not all of us have yet been brain washed. I am entitled to my opinion and I will make it known whether you like it or not.
     
  8. dst

    dst Member

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    Razvan, sorry not to have replied to your post earlier. Let me see if I might do that now.

    "I also think this policy has not been thought through sufficiently well because it is not clear the legal position of EU nationals"

    At present the scheme does not extend to EEA nationals. At some point it might, but all EEA nationals residing in the UK - Brits, Germans, Poles, Romanians etc - would be expected to conform to it if it did. I'd be interested to know what EU law you think this might contravene? I do take your point about an ID card becoming a de facto requirement for employment, but none of the criticisms I have read of the ID card scheme say it would be illegal under EU law.

    That said I do have a concern that A2 nationals might get caught up in the current limited legislation because of the worker restrictions. I have shared this concern with an MP friend of mine who has agreed to raise the matter with the Home Office. A question has been tabled in Parliament, and an answer should be forthcoming in the next 2 weeks.
     
  9. dst

    dst Member

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    Annie,

    I delayed overnight before responding to you publicly through this post - you will already have received a private message from me - but I cannot let your allegation that I have made a threat against you go unanswered.

    I am sorry you have taken offence at me pointing out factual inaccuracies in your understanding of the UK ID card scheme. The legislation on this issue is still evolving and not everyone keeps track of it as closely as I do.

    I welcome the fact you are opposed to the ID card scheme and some of your reasons for this are strong and valid. Others are not. I have pointed this out.

    When challenged, your response has been to become personally abusive toward me - you have questioned my ethnicity, you have questioned whether I should be offering support to the Romanian community, you have suggested I am an agent of the Home Office.

    Following these remarks, my reply was to urge you to be cautious in making further unsubstantiated claims about me, claims which when made on a public bulletin board could amount to libel.

    You have misinterpreted this as a threat. It is not. My response is simply to ask that the administrators delete this thread. I regret having to make this request as there is much valuable information in this thread.
     
  10. razvan80

    razvan80 New Member

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    DST

    thank you for your considered reply. It would seem to me that if ID cards are made compulsory to EU citizens then residence becomes conditional on having an ID card. I interpret it contrary to article 8 of the Directive 38/2004 and the whole scheme of the directive as implemented by the EEA regulations. the administrative formalities for immigration registration purposes are clearly spelled out and the right of free movement and residence can only be curtailed on grounds of public security, public policy and public health. It is also to be seen in the context of free movement of services and persons.

    The ID card scheme should be only for the those who have an allegiance to the state as in other EU countries and it should be kept separate from the immigration registration documentation provided by the Home Office. The only necessity of ID cards would be in terms of terrorism - the government to know exactly who is in the UK and their legal status. This I would think does not respect the principle of proportionality.
     
  11. alana123

    alana123 New Member

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    Annie,
    I wasn’t going to say anything but I feel I have to because it’s not fair what you do.

    DST is clearly on our side and tries to help us when he can and instead of being grateful to him you disrespectfully challenge him when he doesn’t say what you want to hear. I believe this man is true to his word and honest and is not seeking any payment or personal gain for all he does for us like he says so himself. And instead of thanking him you question his actions and his persona. Not very nice of you if you ask me.
    Even if it’s just an online forum there are laws in place to protect people from this type of online bullying! Don’t believe for a moment that you’re anonymous because we all have an IP address, unless yours is protected which I doubt! And if he would wish to react perhaps he’d stand a good chance of wining. I don’t think he’s that man and I believe he won’t fallow that route so, relax. I am just telling you to take a step back because you’re wrong.

    But it’s inappropriate you behave this way. It seams you distrust everybody and I can understand why because life is tough for a Romanian. I’ve been through a lot too until I got where I got, been naïve and trusted people always (mostly because of my age). I thought what I don’t do or think people don’t either, that everybody is truthful and honest but on all occasions I was proved wrong and disappointed. I realized people are not who they appear to be and they all lied about something or other, and that they are self interested, altruistic seeking only what’s best for them personally. Despite all that I remain myself! It’s hard in this tough world but I truly am whom I was born. And that’s honest, trustworthy, generous, nice and most importantly friendly and still believe in people when I first meet them. I trust people for who they say they are or what they say they do until it’s proven different and then if I was wrong I suffer, but I never think about that whenever I meet someone new. But that’s me and I can see not many of you who probably come from the same background and with the same attitude like mine here could still maintain that sense of naivety after so many years here and maybe many disappointments too. You’ve easily become sceptical when you meet someone new and doubt him/her before you know for sure they lie or not! You become incredulous they are who they appear or say they are! I’ve noticed a lot of you on this forum have become like that! You don’t take strangers lightly and are not very open and friendly (most of you behaved this way with me too when I first introduced myself!).

    So, please apologise to DST and recognise your behaviour wasn’t appropriate and don’t do it in the future. Have more trust in people because not everybody has something to hide or devilish intentions. There are still many, many nice people in the world who wishes you good and try to help you if they can!

    If you think I’m naïve to put my trust in DST and believe he’s honest then I’d rather be naïve than a personal attacker like you. So, which one is better? Judge for yourself. -kiss- iss-
     
  12. dst

    dst Member

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    Razvan

    My reading of Article 8 is more narrow. In my view it deals only with the issue that in order to gain the right of residence or right to work in another EU country, an applicant must be able demonstrate that they have the legal basis to exercise this right. Article 8 asks them to demonstrate that they are an EU national which they can do by producing certain key documents from their home state. It is their status as a national of an EU state that confers the right to move within states.

    Your argument seems to hinge on whether it is made a legal requirement to possess a UK ID card before an EU national takes up work etc, and that no other documents will be considered. That does not appear to be a provision within the proposed ID card scheme.

    One might argue that this is what the scheme could become, but I would suggest this is not what the scheme currently is. It would, however, demonstrate the idiocy of the Labour government if this unnecessary ID card plan was found in breach of EU law.

    I've had a quick search around and the only reference I've found to problems with EU law specifically concerns if they are rolled out to non British EU nationals before British EU nationals.

    "EU nationals have the right to enter and reside in the UK. While the exercise of the right of residence of citizens of the Union can be subordinated to the legitimate interests of the Member States, those limitations and conditions must be applied in compliance with the limits imposed by Community law and in accordance with the general principles of that law, in particular the principle of proportionality. That means that national measures adopted on that subject must be necessary and appropriate to attain the objective pursued. Compulsory registration may breach the principle of proportionality particularly if the EU national is required to undergo compulsory registration whereas the British citizen is not. Any difference of treatment between EU nationals and British citizens in respect of undergoing compulsory registration will most certainly fall foul of the Treaty of the EU."

    http://www.jcwi.org.uk/policy/ukpolicy/ ... efing.html


    This opinion does suggest it could breach EU law in other circumstances, but it only speculates on this. Whether it does would depend on the actual implementation of the law, and I'm sure there are lawyers who would like to make a test case of this. It will be interesting to see whether they can.
     
  13. annie

    annie New Member

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    Alana,

    People have opinions and are entitled to express them without fear of being bullied which is why I felt all along DST has been doing - and in my case I too have formed an opinion - I find your comment very amusing and it shows clearly how naive you are. I think after 20 years in this country and working for the government I know a thing or two. I would also like to point out to you that I don't have to explain myself to you but I did out of courtesy.

    PS - I'm confused about your point in respect of the IP address love - I don't know if you have noticed but one can contact me any time through whatever IM or PM me if they want - I don't have anything to hide.
     
  14. annie

    annie New Member

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    DST

    Let's recap so far:
    Nu stiu daca multa lume isi da seama de acest impact negativ in legatura cu ID-urile pentru cei care vin din strainatate in Uk - dar se spune ca in urmatorii ani vor integra si pe cei din tarile Europene sa fie obligati sa-si scoata ID in Uk.

    Below it's an article which was included in my initial comment
    Foreign nationals first, please!!!

    The rollout is in several stages, and there are indeed two separate cards planned. The first is being released by the Borders Agency to foreign nationals; the second is being developed for British citizens by the Identity and Passport Services. Both bodies are part of the Home Office, and the cards will be essentially interoperable.

    But what’s a foreign national? That lovely term is what the government uses to describe anyone living in the UK under a visa – so those people who come here to study, work or marry.



    to which you have responded:

    "There is no need for EEA nationals to get an ID card.

    Incidentally this is not quite the same scheme as the proposed National ID card the Labour government has said it will bring in. The Conservatives have said they will stop this ID card scheme."


    it makes no sense and shows that you either don't understand Romanian as well as you'd like us to believe or just like the politicians you seem get away form the subject.

    Finally I remembered this which I feel it's so appropriate in this instance.

    .."un politician in weekend se duce in parc si se aseaza pe o bancadupa un minut banca cedeaza..concluzia? - desteptul cedeaza primul intotdeauna" -lasy- asy-
     
  15. dst

    dst Member

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    Annie

    Thank you for continuing the discussion in more moderate language. As I noted my knowledge of Romanian is limited (but with a little help I was able to translate your 'joke')

    My initial post observed that the scheme being implemented from November 2008 is (a) a separate scheme to the proposed UK ID card and (b) does not apply to EEA nationals.

    Am I right to think you were disputing point B? It was important for me that the right information be given about this scheme so as not to confuse people about it and have them believe it applies to them.
     
  16. alana123

    alana123 New Member

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    Annie, thank you for proving once more to be very unsociable.
    I am sorry for having to play the devil's advocate here but I felt I had to because your attitude became rude towards DST and continues to remain that way as I observe. If I am wrong and this isn't the case because you're just expressing your opinion than I still have to say the manner in which you express it isn’t appropriate. I maybe naive, like you say but I'd rather be naive and nice than so obnoxious like you my dear. I may also use simple language but I know a great deal more how to behave in a society. I also respect you for the fact that you're much older than me but that doesn't stop me for being stunned for the way you chose to communicate your point of view with other people. As you did turn personal and questioned his motives for taking an interest in our community and his origin, you even went so far to call him a terrorist and that was unbelievable for me to read.
    I respect DST for still being between us because as I noticed any english person which may have tried to join our virtual community apart from him has been scared away. And I totally understand why. You guys are very rude and very unsociable, extremely unfriendly and obnoxious. Many of you don't even realise this and this makes me sad.
    As for the joke:
    Honestly, give him a break because you're not smarter either in this instance, you haven't backed away from the dispute.
    This is my last attempt to make you realise you're wrong. You probably don't know what an IP address means. But I won't tell you because you can find out for yourself.
    I still like you, I like everybody but I need to let you guys know when your behaviour is inappropriate.
     
  17. dst

    dst Member

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    Thank you for your remarks Alana, but as Annie suggests we should let the topic rest.

    She brought the attention of the Forum to a very important matter - the proposed ID card scheme -and she was right to raise the issue of how they might impact upon foreign nationals here.

    My posts sought to clarify her initial comment, and to assure people that the current law does not cover EEA nationals.
     

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