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Roamnii si ID-urile in UK

Discussion in 'INFORMATII UTILE' started by annie, Nov 25, 2008.

  1. annie

    annie New Member

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    Nu stiu daca multa lume isi da seama de acest impact negativ in legatura cu ID-urile pentru cei care vin din strainatate in Uk - dar se spune ca in urmatorii ani vor integra si pe cei din tarile Europene sa fie obligati sa-si scoata ID in Uk.

    Pentru mai multe idei si informatii am adaugat doua linkuri informative:

    http://www.no2id.net/
    http://www.itpro.co.uk/608613/what-you- ... t-id-cards
     
  2. dst

    dst Member

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    There is no need for EEA nationals to get an ID card.

    Incidentally this is not quite the same scheme as the proposed National ID card the Labour government has said it will bring in. The Conservatives have said they will stop this ID card scheme.

    Some of you might find that possessing a UK ID card is useful - that is a decision for you to make - but the scheme may not be long lasting so I would suggest you do not spend money on a card unless you are clear it would be useful to you.
     
  3. alicestela

    alicestela Member

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    Thank you DST, it`s good to know about that. -hi5- i5-
     
  4. annie

    annie New Member

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    DST

    No there is no need [b]at the moment,[/b] but it promises that within the next year if the scheme proves to be successful it will be implemented. My question is why is it necessary to get another ID card say for Romanian nationals when they already have one - why is that ID card not enough??? I seems to me that they are looking for ways to make more money. It's quite unnecessary - and it also promises by 2010 that British nationals will have to have ID cards - I personally don't have a problem in having an ID card providing that we scrap the passport and the driving licence and replace them with the ID card, might as well since the card will hold so much information.
     
  5. dst

    dst Member

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    Labour's plan is certainly to roll out the scheme so it is extended to different groups, and ultimately to everyone. I would question your timeline, however. The revised plan suggests that ID cards can be issued to British nationals alongside passports from 2011/12. The Home Secretary's most authoritative speech on the subject (March 2008) is here:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7281368.stm

    I oppose the scheme. Yes, there might be a certain convenience to having an ID card (and I said above some people might find it useful to have one for this convenience), but the Government's reasoning for introducing them is flawed - they will not offer greater security in most circumstances. Once they are widespread it will be easy for the government to change the conditions in which they need to be produced. This becomes increasingly problematic for civil liberties. The cost of the scheme to government, and the cost of cards to individuals is also excessive.

    The Conservative Party - who will likely form the next government in 2010 - have pledged to abolish the ID card scheme.

    You also ask 'why is it necessary to get another ID card say for Romanian nationals when they already have one - why is that ID card not enough???'

    Firstly it is not currently necessary, and may not become so. I think a case could be made for introducing ID cards to non EU citizens, but this should not apply to Romanians. The concern I have over the scheme is that the worker restrictions on A2s might create a loophole in the ID card legislation that traps A2s needing a work permit. I will try to have Government clarify this question.
     
  6. annie

    annie New Member

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    Yes I too oppose the scheme entirely - and I think you're missing my point here. They are going to introduce the ID cards to non EU citizens first and if the scheme is going to be successful they will introduce it to EU citizens and some British who work at the airports, I too have been watching the articles from BBC, Sky, Times- online, etc and reading between the lines it is clear that they will go ahead with it.
     
  7. dst

    dst Member

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    No, I got that point. Mine is that Labour will be voted out of power before the scheme extends in the way you suggest.
     
  8. annie

    annie New Member

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    Well it's good that you can be very optimistic - let's hope so, let's keep fingers crossed eh? My comment was about the unfairness if this were to happen and the fact that even if the scheme were to be implemented it's unnecessary since most EU countries have already got an ID card.
     
  9. dst

    dst Member

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    But here you are making an unrelated point. You are not objecting to the principle of an ID card, but the need to possess one issued by another country. You are asking to be exempted from a country's laws (should the UK ID card become compulsory for all). This is not an issue of unfairness, it amounts to asking for special treatment.
     
  10. razvan80

    razvan80 New Member

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    hello DST,

    I agree with your position on the ID card scheme in principle. The are very expensive and they do not guard against ID fraud, illegal working or terrorism. I also think this policy has not been thought through sufficiently well because it is not clear the legal position of EU nationals. By convenience you probably mean it is going to be easier to prove the right to work in the UK. Many of us already had negative experiences with employers total ignorance of blue or yellow cards.

    EU nationals should not be legally required to get an ID card if they are residents here because I think this would breach EU law. if the policy will be implemented it would almost force EU nationals to get one because from the employers' point of view the ID card shall be the recognised document that proves the person has the right to work in the UK. It will be the same position with the yellow card for self-employed people, namely that you do not have to apply for one, but you will need to get one. Hopefully, conservatives will win the next general elections and make the scheme redundant. However, this is not guaranteed so this is a dangerous scheme because it can be manipulated to endanger civil liberties.
     
  11. alana123

    alana123 New Member

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    I too categorically oppose compulsory ID-cards although I can understand why they might be necessary, in some cases, because I grew up in Romania with the understanding that ID-s are normal and compulsory. But I don't see the point of it at all!!! Even in Romania they mean nothing to me and are illegal as long as the government allows things such as: you're not allowed to list on your ID card your real residence address if you're not the owner of the property! So, for instance if you're just renting it! Such things are unimaginable for me how that can be possible ...
    Obviously in the UK that's not the case and people will be listing their true residing address on their ID card regardless of owning or renting the house but I still believe there is no need for it at all!!!
    Driving licences do just fine for that ones or twice need for identification at the bank or so and everybody has it in their pockets because they will have been more likely driving to get to the bank first, so they go hand in hand if you ask me. But an ID card will be easily lost or forgotten because there is no real purpose to it to be carried around with you.
    On top of it british people don't like being asked to identify themselves and I kind of feel the same.

    DST I am curious to know why are you so sure that Labour is going to be voted out? :)
    Notice a lot of romanians would vote conservative however it's because they so easily forget that at the last election if Michael Howard (although his parents are romanian and emigrants) was to be voted and the conservatives were now in power, we as emigrants would suffer a lot more :) They simply forget how against immigration the conservative party is! However I too would vote conservative regardless of it. Perhaps is because we Romanian are more middle class than lower class.

    I would object it too if I was to have an EU citizen ID card already. I wouldn't see the point why should I have to get an UK ID card as well in that case, but as I don't have one anymore I then wouldn't mind getting one in the UK. After all I live here.
     
  12. annie

    annie New Member

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    I agree with you alana, and i don't like the idea full stop. Let alone the fact that the type of ID which the British gov wants to introduce has the dna, retina and fingerprints - imagine having your identity stolen - then what you practically can become extinct - but what i find annoying is that most European countries have chosen to scrape the passport in favour of the ID - okay so why would then that person would have to have another ID and pay more money just because this government thinks it's the best thing since sliced bread???

    NO I don't agree with the bureaucracy and many things in Romania but at the end of the day why should the people have to suffer for it?

    I get the impression that DST has signed up for Labour and he's representing them??? He, he, he, :)
     
  13. annie

    annie New Member

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    PS - De ce scrie toata lumea in engleza, credeam ca asta este un site romanesc - nu stiu de ce DST mi-a raspuns in engleza, se pare ca intelege foarte bine romaneste.??? iar eu am nevoie sa practic romana lols
     
  14. annie

    annie New Member

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    DST,

    My point is quite related in that I am strongly objecting to the ID card and will continue to do so - having lived in Romania during communism - but since Romania is part of EU as well as Britain - I simply don't see the point of asking Romanians to get another ID. Yes you are right when you say that "when in Rome you do like the Romans" but here's not the case as both countries have agreed to accept each other's documentation as valid. Now if you were talking about any other nationals which are not part of the EU then I could see your point. I hope this makes it more clear (my meaning that is) - also I don't quite understand your attitude in writing in English when my initial message was in Romanian.
     
  15. dst

    dst Member

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    Annie

    I write in English because I am British. I can understand a little written Romanian - I get the sense of what is being said, but not the detail of it.

    EU documentation is accepted in some instances - at border crossing points, as a proof of identity in dealing with the Home Office for example - but not universally. Nor is the information contained on that EU documentation the same as would be contained on a UK ID card. Amongst other things I imagine your Romanian ID card would not have your UK address.

    So, the ID cards have different metrics, and different purposes. Although some purposes will be in common, these purposes do not wholly overlap.

    Should the terms of the UK ID card scheme be cut down so its scope is the same as the Romanian ID card then indeed the demand that you possess a UK ID card would appear unnecessary. However that is not currently the case.

    I object to the proposed UK ID card first and foremost because of their scope. You share this concern. But your argument that a Romanian ID card can serve the purpose of the UK ID card is flawed.
     
  16. alana123

    alana123 New Member

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    Hey guys I don't understand why we're arguing and what for? As I understand we all agree to object the compulsory ID cards, or am I wrong and missing something here?
    After having seen how many important documents have been lost or forgotten on the train by people from the government lately I am also scared to give them my information or identity and all that’s required for that ID card!
    I would comply with it only if all European citizens have to do too (like my husband as German for example) and especially if the British public will do so too!!! Otherwise, regardless of living here or not I will object. In fact, I'll leave the country for that matter because it's nothing special to live here for me! I'm always wishing to be away anyway, travelling most of the time, and am so excited about going abroad that for example Xmas now means nothing for me in comparison to my one month in St Lucia from the 1st of Jan!!!
    So, yeah if I'm asked for so much and discriminated in the same time I think this country is not worth it at all. Germany is 10 times better anyway and if I can't find a perfect place in the world then I can always go there and live because they welcome me better. And despite all thats going on between british and german as an outsider I believe that british stand no ground against the germans. I'm not biased in any way because my husband is german. I judge what I see or hear for myself.
    I'm already annoyed that since Jan 07 things got only worse in UK for us Romanians. I preferred it when we were not european citizens because then we were respected more honestly! And if I was to be asked what I'd choose pro EU or not prior to joining EU I would have most certainly said NO!
    My point is, I hope the British government won't asks me to forcefully get an ID card here because the only way I'd consider it would be if: 1. we all have to regardless where we come from; 2. it'll be done in a day!; 3. it'll cost nothing. Coz if they do I’m off. End of.
    p.s.: It never surprised me how they alienate the good people who come in this country and always encouraged the bad guys and liars. Sometimes it makes me feel they want so on purpose.
     
  17. annie

    annie New Member

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    -hi5- i5-
    DST - Just out of curiosity where are you from originally? You are certainly not English born. It's interesting to know that other nationalities take an interest to Romanian forums.

    Coming back to your point - if what you say were to happen then we would end up with quite a lot of ID cards - we already have a passport which the HO hold details of address etc on their data bank, we have a driving licence where DVLA stores our details, I can't think of any others but most of the organisations which have issued us with a card hold our data on their data bank so why wouldn't be enough for a Romanian ID card to have that particular data stored onto the HO data bank? It doesn't make sense - just for the sake of an address? Why is it then (for example say) that when I go with my pet to another country their chip is valid over there? Why not the same with ID cards? And who can confirm that the address on the ID is valid? People move all the time - so every time one moves will have to update their ID as well? Besides doesn't this sound like a nanny state? I know we are already becoming that - but c'mon what next? Why don't we all get chipped like the pets - that way the big brother can keep an eye on us.
     
  18. annie

    annie New Member

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    -staycool- taycool-
    Alana, I don't feel we are arguing just putting our point across - okay maybe a bit strongly but I see no harm in that. As for how you feel about the British government it's how most British people feel themselves. I would like to point out that when Romania joined EU has made a great leap and opened a few closed doors - but let's remember that when it comes to politics (or some may say bullitics) we are just mere pawns in the game. The treatment which Romanians get over here it's probably because of the poor state of affairs in this country - it has nothing to do with Romanians in particular - it just happened that Romanians are here at the wrong time. It's also the Poles who are getting the same kind of treatment. What we all need to do is stand up and don't tolerate any nonsense - like with the ID cards - like the Romanian adage says - "today and egg, tomorrow a calf" - today an ID card, tomorrow..???
     
  19. dst

    dst Member

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    That is not my point. My point was to explain that one of your arguments against the UK ID card - “i already have a Romanian ID card so why do I need another” - is specious.

    I have started out by saying - and have consistently argued here - that the proposed ID cards represent a massive infringement on civil liberties. That is the nature of the scheme, and one to which I am opposed. You have reduced that to an argument that because you already have an ID card, even if it is doesnt have the data required on it, then why do I need another? You are not objecting to the principle of ID cards, but objecting to them only when they inconvenience you. This is not a very compelling argument.

    Your inconvenience argument would be solved if the EU issued a single ID card that contained the different metrics required by every single member state - rather than carry multiple cards, just have one that represents a highest common denominator by adopting the standards of the most onerous scheme.

    So taken to its logical conclusion your inconvenience argument is one that never touches on the civil liberties issue. You belatedly tack that point on, but it is not core to your opposition to an ID card. It should be.

    I am objecting on principle to the content of a proposed national law. Sometimes you are too, but ultimately you are falling back on a different argument - that a particular national law would be an inconvenience to you.

    It is reasonable to ask that all those who live in one state be expected to conform to the laws of that state. This principle is fundamental to the rule of law. One can certainly object to particular laws in a state - as I do with ID cards - but you can do this without questioning the jurisdiction of that state. Your core argument is that you wish selectively to opt out of a state’s jurisdiction. That is not a defence that would stand up in court.


    Sorry to disappoint you, but I am British, and have always been. I've had extensive involvements with Romania for several years and as a result of that have been drawn into matters relevant to the Romanian community in the UK. You might have noted that I was invited by the administrators of the site to write a blog about political issues in the UK.
     
  20. alana123

    alana123 New Member

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    Annie, not to worry. I'm cool and I can see where you come from and understand your point of view perfectly as I do DST's. And it's upsetting to see that although he is on our side he can't help but still be a little british himself in the way he thinks on this matter.
    What he says is that the UK can come up with this great ID card technology which no other EU member state can! And that to me isn't just discriminating Ro but every other EU country too for that matter. I don't believe he is right because I don't know any other EU state to have made such big errors and lost (by forgetting on trains!) important documents of which content was personal details of millions of people. So, this says it all about the british capabilities to deal with such important issue like an ID card technology.
    They know that british people will never agree to it so what do they do? They force the foreigners because they can't oppose it.

    As for the Poles, well I am sorry to disagree with you as I believe we're treated the way we're treated because of what the Poles did after Jan 04 until now. They are the culprits why Eastern Europe is regarded as bad in this country now because they came in such big numbers and took a lot of jobs from the british public!!! The funny thing is I agree with the birtish public on this matter as it happened something to me too with regard to Poles. Well, back in 05-06 my NHS dentist changed to a young Pole girl (well, much older than me obviously, she was probably 35) and I hated it because not only she was really bad and didn't do what I wanted, she couldn't even speak english for God sakes! Nothing I asked her she could answer me but tried with her broken english! Well, if I got frustrated and angry that I couldn’t form any sort of relationship with my dentist (which has to happen to be able and trust her/him) what about those poor old british ladies which she would have had to treat and they couldn't speak with or understand her as a dentist (their dentist)!!! She could hardly say "hi, how are you" honestly. I was so glad when shortly saw the back of her (she didn't last long obviously) and since I have a great dentist which understands me and I understand her perfectly and she's british. Now I hope you get what I mean here. I don't feel sorry for the Poles I actually am upset with them because they changed the way british people think about Eastern European people, us! They put us all in the same basket and they don't care we're not Poles!
     

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