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Curs NVQ --> angajat ilegal

Discussion in 'EMIGRARE' started by silverfern, Jul 28, 2009.

  1. silverfern

    silverfern New Member

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    georgiv a scris:
    Da, stiu ca atunci cand te grabesti mai reduci din pretentii. Dar poate mai citesc si altii si vor putea evita anumite probleme. Cele de stat incep dupa un anumit program pt ca functioneaza dupa anumite reglementari date de stat. Cele private au propriile reguli, dar tocmai datorita acestor reguli proprii ati vazut si voi ce se poate intampla. Pe de alta parte, daca un colegiu particular e mai flexibil in privinta datei de incepere a cursului, poate ar fi mai bine ca cei interesati sa apeleze totusi la un colegiu care ofera cursuri mai diversificate, decat la unul care ofera doar cursuri NVQ, si doar pe un singur domeniu.
     
  2. dst

    dst Member

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    I've been in contact with the Home Office, asking some general questions about NVQ/Yellow Card/Blue Card, and also the issue caused by Precision Training.


    These are the answers I received:



    So on point 1 there is an issue that could arise regarding course registration and a work placement starting shortly after. Indeed, if a work placement starts within the first month of study there is likely to be an issue over legality of employment.

    As has been suggested, we should try to develop some activity to highlight this problem.

    On (2) as Silverfern and others have said, employment on a yellow card, provided it is a relevant work placement.

    Lastly the Home Office is aware of the issue regarding Precision Training and they are looking at individual cases. It might be that there are further steps individuals can take.
     
  3. georgiv

    georgiv New Member

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    Lastly the Home Office is aware of the issue regarding Precision Training and they are looking at individual cases. It might be that there are further steps individuals can take.[/quote]


    We apply second time to HO with the same 2 days missing and they reject again for dark blue card because of that 2 days
     
  4. dst

    dst Member

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    georgiv a scris:

    The problem is that the have rules to apply. These rules say 12 months continuous employment.

    They have also said to me:

    "Regarding Precision Training, the whole situation has got very complicated.

    However, given that students are allowed to work for up to 20 hours a
    week outside any work placement (and any hours outside term time), they
    may still be able to do this even after the training provider closed.
    Such work could possibly be taken into account. This is all under
    review at the moment, with casework, policy and legal colleagues trying
    to work out a way forward."
     
  5. rebecca_uk

    rebecca_uk Active Member

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    Wow! That could actually be the way Forward. So, working for one's employee outside Precision College is considered extra-work?
    But will these hours not exceed 20 hrs/wk? I doubt it...
    Why can't Home Office just admit that it's not the students' mistake, but the college is at fault?
    Let's also remember that the DIUS register hasn't been updated since March,and in this case, it is my belief, that the official register authorities are a tiny bit to blame as well...
    It will just be easier to admit the mistakes and not sweep the rubbish under the carpet, the sooner this is admitted and dealt with, the sooner they prevent things from escalating.(media, other authorities)
     
  6. silverfern

    silverfern New Member

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    Dst, thanks for your action.

    About the HO answers...

    Paste & copy answer. They were criticized in parliament about this too. :S Anyway it seems that now they work faster, but make some mistakes too, let's see from September when most courses start...

    Well... they say that they won't issue your registration card if you don't start your course first. Maybe they need some logical skills courses before working for HO.

    Legal employment? Because anouka or georgiv worked more than 12 months, but it was a period before they had the yellow card issued that didn't count as legal employment. On the other hand without starting the course(and the course is a work assessed periodically) they didn't had the right to a yellow card - they even sent the work contract to the HO to prove that they are eligible as a student studying a NVQ.

    dst a scris:
    The problem is not that they have rules to apply (and when you say rules I hope you are refering to official regulations and laws, not some internal guidance for caseworkers), the problem is that some rules are not considering every situation that could arise. And the question is if they want to fix them and if they are willing to listen some suggestion for fixing them.

    Considering that at the end of this year will be at least one change regarding the Romanian citizens, maybe this would be a good time as well to start to put some pressure on HO for at least having the same treatment as the A8 citizens.

    Really? Based on what law or regulation, or amendment? A work placement means you can work full time. So beside your full time work you can work for up to 20 hours a week, and those 20 hours work may not be related to your course? They may still be able to do what after the provider is closed? To work full time + 20 hours per week? To work full time considering that the students are in vacation, and if so for how long?
     
  7. anouka

    anouka Active Member

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    hello, I would like to thank u for your action,dst,even the answer is not right- i am talking about HO answer.
    Well done, Silverfern, u have pointed very well all this problems, I couldn't do it with my "good" knowledge of english...
     
  8. dst

    dst Member

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    rebecca_uk a scris:
    I don't think the HO have said it is the mistake of the students. Where people have been turned down, it is not because they made a mistake, but rather that they had not fulfilled the requirements for a Blue Card.

    In that sense they are innocent victims, but what people here are seeking is for the rules to be bent because the college closed down.
     
  9. rebecca_uk

    rebecca_uk Active Member

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    DST, I'm sorry, I was upset last time and we all do appreciate it and know perfectly well you're on our side.

    Regarding Home Office, they are not saying that aloud, but they do punish these students, by not admitting exceptional circumstances.Of course: it's easier to blame those that are still around, desperately struggling, while the real culprit took the money and left.

    That is why, if we really want to go ahead with this, I personally make an appeal to all that have been wronged by this illegal taking over of colleges to stand up, write their stories here.

    Perhaps Mr. B. Carpa Veche is enjoying his holiday but he must have left a colleague in charge for emergency situations and this is one. Perhaps our beloved Ambassador should get involved as well,the Minister Of Foreign Affairs and even President Basescu. If they pretend not to be aware let's ask the Media to make them aware. I just think ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! AND, dear ROMANIANS, WE MUST NEEDS UNITE IN ORDER TO SUCCEED! After all, most of the funds that enter Romania, come from people living and working abroad, not to mention, our families home do pay tax for diplomatic relationships.
    ,
     
  10. dst

    dst Member

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    There are further questions that can be asked regarding the time it takes to receive a Yellow Card after course registration. This is something that can be pursued. I am struggling to understand why it should take 20 business days to issue a card when the only requirement for it is that a student is enrolled on an approved course. The situation is slightly more complex for NVQs - the work placement must be verified as relevant to the course of study - but


    you have taken this quote out of context. This refers to the work placement element within the course, not the start of the course itself. The HO language is a little loose, but the context makes it clearer.


    Yes, legal employment. Illegal work is just that. Illegal.



    No. Law/regulations/guidance set an interpretative framework. They cannot be expected to predict every situation. When hard cases arise, they have to consider these within the interpretative framework.


    This is what the Romanian authorities and community should have been doing consistently and continuously since 2007 - that they have not is a massive failing on their part and for which they must take the blame. This is not something that can stop and start. It has to be sustained.


    This is something that is interesting. It appears that a distinction is being made between work/study that is specific to the NVQ, and a general right to (limited) work that is extended to all students. If this is in fact the case, then someone could work in a bar in the evening for example - although it is not clear to me why doing this would strengthen the case for a Blue Card as it additional work within the 12 month window.

    The point about being able to work fulltime during vacations is something that is extended to all students.



    I have another question. What is the length of a typical NVQ class? The period from registration at the college, to the last exam/assessment? After this last assessment when do you get a diploma or whatever?
     
  11. rebecca_uk

    rebecca_uk Active Member

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    Another point to the Romanians involved in this:

    DO YOU HAVE BULGARIAN COLLEAGUES/FRIENDS?
    If so, how are they handling this?

    I'm saying this as I've decided to get in touch with the Bulgarian citizens.Maybe some of us will be able to unite with them, though it would have been better for the WHOLE ROMANIANS IN THE UK TO BE UNITED.

    www.novinite.com is their forum.
     
  12. silverfern

    silverfern New Member

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    Rebecca, sunt oameni din cadrul ministerului de externe/ambasadei care citesc ce se scrie aici, sunt chiar si din randul autoritatilor britanice. Deci stiu ce se intampla. Intrebarea e daca fac sau vor sa faca ceva in legatura cu astfel de probleme. Pana acum se pare ca nu.
    Politicienii romani(mi-e greu sa le spun autoritati) ar putea castiga ceva capital politic fiind interesati de astfel de situatii, si mai ales dorind sa le rezolve(vin alegerile in toamna, nu?). Insa se pare ca in buna traditie damboviteana, e mai usor sa castigi niste voturi cu 100.000 de lei, sau cu o sticla de ulei si un "kil" de zahar, sau cu niste mici si o bere. Si apoi daca se preocupa de astfel de probleme nu mai au timp sa faca circ pe la tv, nu? Si televiziunea poate aduce procente bune la vot.
     
  13. silverfern

    silverfern New Member

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    dst a scris:
    I understand that a private education provider don't have to follow the state rules. So they could make their own rules regarding the structure of the course. And if that provider say that your course consist in starting to work from the first day, and your only contact with someone representing the provider is when your work is assessed, then the course start is when you start to work, right? I think that's the situation we discuss here.

    Ok. The question is: are they doing something to prevent these kind of situations to appear again?

    You're right again. Unfortunately, the Romanian politicians don't care about it - they prefer to buy a vote instead of doing something, and the Romanian community... look at this site: a few thousands of registered members and how many of them are willing to do something? And the funny thing is that those who want to do something(maybe 10 or 20 people) have nothing to gain from this.

    I don't think that a NVQ course has a standard length. Could be from 6 or 9 months to... maybe 1.5 years, or 2 years, or maybe more. I think that the length of the course is based on the progress made by the student. Maybe depends on the level of the NVQ too.
     
  14. anouka

    anouka Active Member

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    I don't think that a NVQ course has a standard length. Could be from 6 or 9 months to... maybe 1.5 years, or 2 years, or maybe more. I think that the length of the course is based on the progress made by the student. Maybe depends on the level of the NVQ too.[/quote]

    daca nu progresezi in vreun fel cu acest NVQ, colegiul iti da reject si ramai fara provider.In mod normal un NVQ level 2 nu ar trebui sa dureze mai mult de 3-4 luni
    Sunt doar 3 capitole de urmat, nu e mare branza de facut, dar ei o taraganeaza pt k trb sa vina la care home-ul respectiv si nu au destui assessori sa faca asta.
    Dar pe confirmarea mea de inscriere la NVQ level 2 si 3 durau 1 an impreuna.
     
  15. georgiv

    georgiv New Member

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    Oricum studentul cu YC e interesat sa tina 1 an acest curs pt a face perioada de munca legala pt a aplica dupa pt Blue card, sau sa tina cel putin 8 luni ca mai apoi sa ai drept legal de munca inca 4 luni de la terminarea cursului si asa aduni 12 luni de munca legala
     
  16. silverfern

    silverfern New Member

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    anouka a scris:
    Poate depinde de colegiu, sau daca e de stat sau privat. Chestia cu min. 6 sau 9 luni o vazusem pe site-urile unor colegii de stat. Uite ce scrie pe Directgov:
    http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/EducationAn ... G_10039029
     
  17. anouka

    anouka Active Member

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    silverfern a scris:
    haha.Eu am colegi care au terminat NVQ 2 in 3 luni,iar NVQ3 in 3 luni si putin.
    Depinde...
     
  18. dst

    dst Member

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    What I'm trying to understand a bit better here is the timeline for those that have had problems recently.

    So people arrived in March/April/May to start an NVQ course, but that NVQ course had no defined duration (it could last 18-24 months). Provided you stay on the course you can continue to work (and so qualify for the Blue Card).

    Romanians will want to be on the course for at least 12 months, although in practice that would have to be 14 months to allow time for the Yellow Card to arrive and so create legal entitlement to work.

    Does the Training Provider compel people to start work before the Yellow Card has arrived, or are people just wanting to start work earlier so they can earn money?

    Had Precision Training not gone into Administration people would still be doing the course, and so would by now have completed 12 months legal work. The problem is that once the Training provider closed the course ended and so legal entitlement to work also ended.

    Although there is a possibility to transfer to another Training provider, the one that many people registered with was not an accredited provider and so registrations are invalid.
     
  19. silverfern

    silverfern New Member

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    anouka a scris:
    Anouka ideea e ca acel curs tine cont de capacitatea de invatare a studentului, de rapiditatea cu care asimileaza cunostintele. Ei spun ca marea majoritate il termina intr-un an sau doi, nu ca nu poti termina mai devreme.

    dst a scris:
    No, they can be on the course for 8 months too, but with two conditions: to have the yellow card from the beginning(to be in legal employment), and to finish the course - this is the condition to take advantage of the 4 months period of full legal employment after the end of the course. But many of them don't know about the 4 months period...

    This is the key that could solve the problem. From what I understand they have to start the employment from the first day of the course. Maybe the students could tell us more. Maybe they signed some terms and conditions, or a contract in which is written such a condition.

    I think an important factor here was the lack of communication, or the delays in communicating some info. The students found out late about the closure of the Precision, about the Aspire not being accredited, not to mention that the DIUS list is not updated, or ceased to exist from March 30 - they say about the closure of the DIUS register on the UKBA site, although they tell us that for EU students this is the list that must be consulted. The students could enroll at another accredited provider in less than 30 days, and qualify for the 12 months of legal employment without interruption, but if they have all the information in time...
     
  20. anouka

    anouka Active Member

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    in contractul meu nu e trecut nimic care sa specifice asa ceva
     

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