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Curs NVQ --> angajat ilegal

Discussion in 'EMIGRARE' started by silverfern, Jul 28, 2009.

  1. silverfern

    silverfern New Member

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    Dst, it seems that I see the problem from a Romanian point of view, and you see it from a British point of view. :laugh:

    The problems basically arise from having too many categories of European citizens, and having to issue fast some laws for new European citizens. That's one reason why the Accession Regulations for A2 had to be amended shortly after they issued it as you said. But that's another discussion.

    From one point of view you can treat the self employed persons and students the same, it's about free movement inside EU. But self employment is a business, a student working is an employee(part time or full time). From this point of view a student can be treated like a worker with authorization to work, and he should benefit from those 12 months. It's unfair to say that a student is not a worker, because he can be both. It's like studying two years in only one. Nobody can stop you, if you can do it. Is there any law saying that you can't be both a student and a worker? Or both a self employed and a worker?

    We should know if a NVQ course means a work placement from the first day, or if the students should attend some theory classes for a few days before they start working. If the work must be started from the first day of the course, then the HO must issue the yellow card in that day, or find a way to give the students a provisional right to work before they issue the yellow card.
    Then they must think about what happens with the students when a college have some problems like those discussed here. I mean a student can't be responsible for the college management. Maybe there should be a stand by period between the date of this unhappy event and the date of enrolling to another course. And this period should not be counted as an interruption of the 12 months.
     
  2. dst

    dst Member

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    I will try to address the specific problems of individual people first, and then I will address the more general issue of yellow card registration/NVQs/Blue card later.

    The issues here are can we help those that have been refused cards recently, and can we do something to improve the situation in the future. These are different points, and it may not be possible to achieve success on both fronts.


    Those people that have been refused - Anouka, georgiv (are there others?) - should certainly contact Bogdan at the Embassy to see if he will pursue your cases with the UKBA. Hopefully he will also be able to find out when worker entitlement starts as part of an NVQ qualification.


    Anouka

    When did you apply for the yellow card? You say you started work on 23 March, but a card was not received until 2 June. Did it take 10 weeks for the card to come through?

    georgiv's husbands card took 4 weeks to arrive.

    You say your contract of employment started on 23 March. How did you get this contract?

    Your course came to an end on 29 May 2009?

    Did the HO say that your employment was not continuous because of the change in training provider? or have they just said that 2 June (when you received the yellow card was day 1 of legal work so 12 months starts from that point?



    The condition for a blue card (if we assume that work on a yellow card counts towards a blue card) is 12 months legal continuous employment.

    In your case Anouka, and for your husband georgiv, the HO seem to be disputing the 'legal' part of this - that is you only had legal entitlement to work from the day the yellow card was issued.

    Bogdan at the Embassy needs to clear this point up.



    General issues
    A NVQ student and other types of student are different. While other students can choose whether they wish to work (and so decide whether they want to apply for a yellow card), NVQ students are required to work and so need a yellow card.

    The college sends away for the yellow card, but they cannot do so until you enroll on the course.

    At some colleges the period of work placement starts before the yellow card is received. This creates a problem for students that need permission to work.



    I understand the general problem and this is something around which a campaign can be developed. But the problem is this (or it will be how the Home Office look at it)

    An NVQ is a qualification. Work placements in NVQ courses will vary in length, The length of the NVQ course might also vary depending on the subject. People that take the course should do so to gain the qualification, not to gain entitlement to work. The qualification only makes you more employable - you have special training now. This is similar to the problem from last year where the HO judged that many people were choosing certain courses because doing so would allow some rights to work in the UK, not because they wanted to study.

    If a Polish takes the course they can work at the end of it. If a Romanian takes the course they are now more eligible under the new points based system and so may be able to get a job, but the general rule is that you are still subject to worker restrictions.


    So, to those people that took these NVQs, did you enroll because you thought it gave you the right to a Blue Card? How did you come to believe this/who told you it did?


    If anyone would prefer to send me information privately you can do so using the PM function here.

    Please note that I cannot represent individual people, but I can highlight a general problem Romanians are having. I can suggest who you might need to contact for more specialist help. I have no financial interest in this so do ask for any money, nor do I receive money from anyone else.
     
  3. georgiv

    georgiv New Member

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    Da ai inteles bine problema!
    Sotul meu a aplicat pt YC in aceeasi zi in care a pasit pe teritoriul UK pe 7 mai 2008 (cand a ajuns la aeroport la colegiu Precision) si cardul este eliberat cu data de 3 iunie 2008.
    Iar cu d-nul Bogdan Carpa Veche am incercat sa vorbesc ieri dar e in holiday :( revine la munca pe data de 17 august).
    Acum e inscris la alt colegiu cu data de 10 iulie 2009, alta 1000£, am mai aplicat o data, poate poate, si ieri ne-a sunat o doamna 'caseworker' si ne-a zis ca-i pare rau dar ca lipsesc 2 zile asa ca trebuie sa muncim inca un an si apoi sa mai facem o aplicatie pentru 'blue'

    Yes, you've understood the problem well!
    My husband applied for a YC the same day he stepped on bBritish territory, on 7 May 2008 )when he reached the precision College) and the card was issued on 3 June 2008.

    Regarding Mr Bogdan Carpa Veche, I tried to talk to him yesterday, but he's on holiday (he returns to work on 17 August 2009)

    He (my husband) has now registered with another college since 10 July 2009,another GBP1000 wasted, he has applied once again, maybe...who knows?, but yesterday a lady "caseworker" called and told us that she was sorry, but my husband missed 2 days and so we have to work another year to submit a new application for the "blue".
     
  4. georgiv

    georgiv New Member

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    Cat despre similaritatea dintre slujbe aici in UK si in tara, el a lucrat in Spitalul Judetean de Urgenta Constanta timp de 8 ani ca brancardier (steatcher bearer)/ infirmier.
    deci stia despre ce e vorba! ;)
     
  5. georgiv

    georgiv New Member

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    dst a scris:
     
  6. dst

    dst Member

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    I dont like the restrictions on A2 workers, but they are perfectly legal. Many EU countries put similar measures in place and the Romanian government accepted these by signing the Accession Treaty.


    So there are two things we can try to do

    1. Help those that have immediate and specific problems as a result of the restrictions.

    2. Develop a campaign to try to challenge the restrictions overall. This needs the active participation of the community here and the Embassy. Both have been reluctant to do anything
     
  7. silverfern

    silverfern New Member

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    dst a scris:
    Dst, not only that anouka and georgiv contacted the Embassy - with no apparent results until now, but I know that anouka contacted the local MP too, made an appeal, sent the case to Solvit. Now we have to wait to see the results. She did almost everything for an individual case, that's why I taught that it's time to find some solutions for the general problem too.

    The second provider is not accredited, so studying for a NVQ with this provider, according to law, doesn't make them "qualified persons" for taking legal employment. The course wasn't completed, so they can't take advantage of the 4 months period of legal employment after finishing the course. Qualified person in this case would be a student enrolled at an accredited institution.


    We don't assume, we follow the law. The work on a yellow card is legal employment. The exception of work authorization(the blue card is the document certifying this) is based on a 12 months period of legal employment.

    You are right, a qualified person, in this case, is a student enrolled at an accredited institution for the main purpose of following a course of study. But how can you prove what is the main purpose?

    Not the course give them the right of unrestricted work(certified by the blue card), but the 12 months legal employment. I think most of them are aware of this. This is all about counting those 12 months. And as an explanation about the "being a student for work or study" question, maybe some people are applying for the blue card and continue the study, but they don't want to feel unsecure with the yellow cards. For example in this case, with the two colleges(the second one not being accredited), if a student is keep working as part of the course, he's in illegal employment. If an immigration officer check him, he should pay a fine or even go to prison.
     
  8. anouka

    anouka Active Member

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    dst a scris:
    Hello,again,dst.
    1. My opinion is that Mr Bogdan from the Romanian Embassy is not doing anything to help us because he is not well informed or advised.

    2. I have other 3 colleagues, they have been refused with the same reason- but none of them will post here.

    3.My employer has completed the application for all of us in the same time-in April 2008, but I was the first one who received this yellow card,and after me, another 2 colleagues but with different dates-after mine.

    4.My contract of employment was signed in 31st of April but starting from 23rd of March 2008.How did I get the contract?
    I was looking for a job via internet, I have found a recruitment agency in Romania who was in touch with another recruitment agency from UK-St.Thomas Recruitment.
    After this , I have received some phone calls from them just to ensure that I was the right person, that I was qualified for this job, having some experience in this field- i was trained - qualified nurse and qualified pharmacist technician in Romania.
    After few days, I have received some-4 or 5 phone calls from this employer-Swan Care Partnership- and I have been interviewed over the phone.

    5.My training is endless!!!!
    Was started in 23rd of March 2008 until my application date for a blue registration certificate-which was in May 2009.I have applied before my last assessor to come.Anyway, in may 2009, I have completed 14 months of lawful employment.
    In all this 14 months we have had 5 assessors from Precision Training, we have finished just 2 or 3 core units because of the assessors fault.

    6.As I said before, Home Office replied to my application form. On 9th of June 2009 I have received a letter, asking me to prove that I have completed already my NVQ level II and III and also to provide a contact number for Precision Training.But on 1st of June my training provider has gone into liquidation and has been taken over by new management( Aspire Training) and as part of the contract, learners have been transferred from Precision Training to Aspire Training.Note that i have received this letter from Aspire on 13th of June, so I couldn't tell them earlier about this situation between this 2 providers

    And another fact.
    My colleague- Alexandra, the girl who received the blue card applying in the same way like us and being in the same situation.
    She came over to work in UK 1 month after me-17th of April 2008.Her yellow card was issued in August 2008.
    Same training provider. Her application for a blue registration certificate was made on 1st of May 2009- so , between 08.2008-05.2009, if you will take from the yellow card were just 9 months, not 12.But if you will take from her the contract of employment she have completed 12 months of legally work.How was her blue card issued?
    The law is not the same for us?
    Because even for georgiv's husband-his application was on 7th of may 2008 and until Precision Training went into liquidation he already has completed 13 months with them and working too.
    I hope that I made myself clear...my english...offfff
    Thank you very much for all your help.
     
  9. georgiv

    georgiv New Member

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    look what I found on the internet

    PRECISION's 'ASPIRE' WAS A PHOENIX


    Precision Training made a last ditch attempt to salvage the cash cow

    London, 13 July 2009 (Updated)

    As events in Precision's Burnham offices began to resemble the last days in Hitler's bunker, a final effort was made to rescue part of the cash cow that Precision had become.

    In a desperate attempt to retain some of the money being paid by students, care home operators and other customers, the Precision management set up the company that collapsed before it started, the Aspire Training as a Phoenix company.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    We have been asked by two other companies with a similar names to state that they are not connected in any way with this issue.

    Aspire Training Team Ltd of Bournemouth, which is part of the Hadland Care Group, have been overwhelmed with phone calls from many of the people affected by this issue.

    Whilst they sympathize with the victims in this case, they are concerned that the information generated has not been precise enough, and generated a misunderstanding that their company are connected with this matter. They have requested that the difference between their company and the Precision/Aspire companies is made clear so that it is obvious they are not connected in any way.

    They are also concerned that as legitimate providers in the healthcare training industry this could affect their business.

    Aspire Training Team Ltd of Bournemouth are not in any way connected with any of the issues published here, and have never been involved in any way with the companies concerned.

    Aspire Business Service Ltd of Essex, (www.aspirebusinessservice.co.uk) have been receiving phone calls from people affected by this issue. We really can sympathise with the victims, we are concerned that the information generated has not been precise enough, and generated a misunderstanding that their company are connected with this matter.

    They have requested that the difference between their company and the Precision/Aspire companies is made clear so that it is obvious they are not connected in any way. They are also concerned that as they work in the training industry this could affect their business.

    Aspire Business Services Ltd of Essex are not in any way connected with any of the issues published here, and have never been involved in any way with the companies concerned.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Letters were sent out to all and sundry telling them that as Precision was collapsing, lo and behold, Aspire Training were coming to the rescue.

    The letter, a scanned photo of which is reproduced below, told that from the 1st June 2009, learners had been transferred to the Phoenix company.

    It went on to say that Aspire was not associated in any way with Precision, and more crucially was not responsible for any previous dealings.

    It carried on saying that no refunds would be made, however, that the management team (Aspire's) "...will deal with these problems quickly and efficiently".

    Stating that Aspire was not connected with Precision was obviously meant to give the impression that the white knights were coming to the rescue of all the students and customers of Precision who had suffered. Well the white knight was not so when it is revealed that the website of Aspire (www.aspire-training.org.uk) was set up and registered by one Salim Shivji on the 3rd June 2009. The company was registered on the same day.

    ASPIRE TRAINING AND ASSESSMENT LTD
    889 HARROW ROAD
    SUDBURY
    WEMBLEY
    MIDDLESEX
    UNITED KINGDOM
    HA0 2RH
    Company No. 06923733
    Status: Active
    Date of Incorporation: 03/06/2009

    WHOIS information for aspire-training.org.uk

    Domain name:
    aspire-training.org.uk

    Registrant:
    Salim Shivji

    Registrant type:
    UK Individual

    Registrant's address:
    The registrant is a non-trading individual who has opted to have their
    address omitted from the WHOIS service.

    Relevant dates:
    Registered on: 03-Jun-2009
    Renewal date: 03-Jun-2011

    CLICK HERE TO SUBMIT YOUR COMPLAINT FORM

    CLICK HERE FOR EARLIER PRECISION/GENESIS STORIES




    COMMENT BOX BELOW








    LIST YOUR EVENT/FIESTA/GIG/CONCERT/PARTY/SPORTS FEST - FREE



    CLICK FOR THE EVENT LISTINGS SECTION

    Have an event you want listed?

    Party, concert, fiesta, gig, exhibition, film/dance/opera/play, sports event, OFW meeting or indeed any event you want publicized?

    It's free in Balita Pinoy and very simple

    Go to the event listing section, at the bottom of the list is the:
    LIST YOUR EVENT IN THE TIME OUT SECTION - LISTINGS ARE FREE link

    Just fill out the simple form, there is no registration, it's free and there are no restrictions on location or event

    If you have a poster/flyer in jpg/gif format, add that in as the photograph and it will be displayed (no Word documents)
     
  10. georgiv

    georgiv New Member

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  11. georgiv

    georgiv New Member

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    I fill already the complain form!!!
     
  12. georgiv

    georgiv New Member

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    This man Salim Shivji sign my letter of enrolment when I ask from Precision when I aply for the first time for Blue card
     
  13. georgiv

    georgiv New Member

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  14. georgiv

    georgiv New Member

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    Pe filipinezi repede i-a aparat cineva, pe noi reprezentantii nostri ne lasa de izbeliste pleca in concedii nu prea stiu multe....ca te apuca toate alea.

    The Filipino authorities were quick to defend their students, our authorities leave us to the wolves, they go on holiday, don't know much about...we're going mad
     
  15. georgiv

    georgiv New Member

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  16. dst

    dst Member

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    Okay, I will make a general enquiry with the HO. No names will be mentioned or specific examples used, just an outline of the problem. I will see what answer I get.
     
  17. georgiv

    georgiv New Member

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    Cel putin dk nu ne vor elibera acum blue pt ca avem acea diferenta , sa ne acorde blue dupa ce termina noul curs NVQ2, adica dupa 6 luni, si nu dupa 1 an, poate vor accepta!
     
  18. silverfern

    silverfern New Member

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    O informatie interesanta:
    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... 503.htm#n2

    Deci daca e un colegiu privat, se pare ca isi fac propriile reguli. In cazul asta poate e mai bine sa apelati la colegii de stat pt mai multa siguranta.
     
  19. georgiv

    georgiv New Member

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    Colegiile de stat incep cursurile dupa un anumit program (de ex. Norwich City college ) incepe cursurile de NVQ2 in sanatate deabia in septembrie iar dk tu te grabesti cum a fost cazul nostru nu ai timp sa astepti atat si apelezi la particulari
     
  20. anouka

    anouka Active Member

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