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Curs NVQ --> angajat ilegal

Discussion in 'EMIGRARE' started by silverfern, Jul 28, 2009.

  1. silverfern

    silverfern New Member

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    In ultimul timp au aparut unele probleme pt cei care au aplicat pt blue card dupa 12 luni lucrate ca student NVQ. Sa incercam sa lamurim situatia si sa gasim solutii pt a preintampina astfel de probleme.

    Lately there were some problems for those who applied for a blue card based on a period of 12 months employment as a NVQ student. Let's clarify this situation and find some solutions in order to avoid these problems.

    Pe scurt e vorba de un provider de cursuri NVQ care de la o anumita data s-a desfiintat, cursantii fiind preluati de un provider neacreditat, in felul asta acei cursanti pierzandu-si statutul legal de student. Desi unii studenti incepusera sa lucreze ca parte a cursului, si cu contract de munca, datorita faptului ca au primit yellow-cardul dupa inceperea muncii, nu s-au mai calificat pt perioada de 12 luni lucrate legal. Unora chiar le lipseau o zi sau doua pt a aduna cele 12 luni. De fapt ei au lucrat ilegal pana la primirea yellow cardului conform urmatorului paragraf:
    http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/pdf/uk ... 475_en.pdf

    Dupa cum se stie, pt a primi yellow card ca student trebuie sa fi inceput deja cursul respectiv, insa cursul presupunand o munca platita ca parte a sa, asta inseamna sa lucrezi ilegal pana se elibereaza cardul.
    Mai mult, cu cateva luni in urma pe site-ul UKBA se specifica faptul ca pt a obtine yellow card-ul trebuie sa mai intai sa incepi plasamentul in munca. Adica te sfatuiau sa lucrezi ilegal. :eek:hmy:

    As we all know, for obtaining a yellow card as a student you must start the course first, but since the work placement is part of that course, that means you will work illegally until the card is issued. More than that, a few months ago on the UKBA website they were saying that in order to obtain the yellow card you must start the work placement first. So they were advise you to work illegally.

    Pt a gasi o solutie la o astfel de situatie cred ca ar fi util sa gasim o lege care sa reglementeze structura cursurilor de tip NVQ, si in functie de ea sa le cerem celor de la HO sa rectifice legea, si eventual sa plateasca pt incurcaturile create. Are cineva cunostinta de astfel de reglementari ale cursurilor NVQ? Sau alte idei care ar putea aduce vreo solutie in astfel de cazuri? Stiu ca unii pot alege sa se inscrie la alt curs si sa-si continue statutul de student NVQ, dar poate altii nu-si permit un nou curs sau pur si simplu vor sa li se respecte dreptul de munca nerestrictionat in momentul in care il obtin.

    To find a solution for this kind of situation I think we should find a law that regulates the structure of a NVQ course, and based on that we should ask HO to amend the law, and even to pay for the troubles caused.
    Does anybody know what are the regulations for NVQ courses, or have any other ideas for solving these cases? I know that for some people the solution may be to enroll to another course and be a student again and having the student rights, but some can't afford another course, or they just want their right for unrestricted work to be respected from the moment they gain it.

    Va multumesc.

    Thank you.
     
  2. negrutxa

    negrutxa New Member

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    Multumesc Silverfern pentru initiativa ! Luptatorul cu calul a pornit batalia! Oficial!

    E important sa avem la indemana si cateva exemple care sa exprime clar si concis punctul nostru de vedere. Asteptam scrisorelele voastre ( nu mai mult de jum de pag va rog)pe acest topic si daca nu va descurcati la traducere, va ajutam noi !

    O sa vorbesc si cu David (DST) sa ii cer parerea caror forumuri sa ne adresam pentru a fi siguri ca suntem auziti si ca urmam pasii necesari.

    David, what would be your thoughts on the issues described above by Silverfern? How can we tackle the situation from your point of view in order to make sure we are successful in our approach? We were thinking writing a letter that presents the fact, links from the law - discrepancy - and its implications on the microenvironment (community) and macroenvironment ( economic and social factors and also additional costs for the government - excluding the compensations costs that they could pay ). The letter would then be sent to HO and also to:

    LABOUR & SOCIAL AFFAIRS SECTION

    Mr Bogdan CARPA-VECHE, attaché
    Tel: 020 7937.8125
    Fax: 020 7937.8069
    e-mail: social_affairs@roemb.co.uk

    Thank you in advance for your time.
     
  3. taranu

    taranu New Member

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    Voi cum ati traduce/interpreta acest paragraf din Guidance:
    http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... omania0408

    Poate sa ma lamureasca si pe mine cineva cum poate verifica si accepta UKBA un plasament la munca platit daca acesta nu are loc in cazul NVQ ?
     
  4. silverfern

    silverfern New Member

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    O interpretare ar putea fi: "nu va dam cardul pana nu verificam si noi ca exista o intelegere intre angajator si providerul cursului astfel incat providerul sa ofere certificatul/diploma iar angajatorul sa ofere locul de munca". Dar trebuie sa stim exact cum e reglementat dpdv legal un curs NVQ. Care-i procedura, ce pasi trebuie urmati intre colegiu si angajator, etc.
    Pe guidance te poti baza eventual daca vrei sa le ceri despagubiri pt dezinformare sau inducere in eroare.
     
  5. georgiv

    georgiv New Member

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    Cazul nostru pe scurt. Sotul meu a ajuns pe Heatrow pe 7 mai 2008. Din tara stia deja ca trebuie sa ajunga rapid la colegiu Precision Training in Slough sa se inscrie. Aici, la colegiu, doamnele de acolo au completat pt el hartiile necesare aplicarii pentru YC, de acolo dupa cateva ore a plecat mai departe spre Norwich. De pe data de 9 mai 2008 a inceput munca cu contract de munca din partea angajatorului, iar dupa o luna de zilea venit si YC cu data de 3 iunie 2008. Poate acel YC trebuia sa aiba pe el data de 7 mai 2008, data cand a fost solicitat sau cel putin asa mi se pare normal asta pt a putea intregi cele spuse in lege.
    Dk se face o mobilizare de schimbare a legii in scopul imbunatatirii contribuim si noi!

    Our case, briefly. My husband reached Heathrow on 7 May 2008. He already knew since when he was back home that he had to arrive fast at the Precision Training college in Slough to register.Arrived here, at the college, the ladies from the college filled in the documents needed to apply for Yellow Card,on hid behalf,and a few hours later he left for Norwich. He started work with an Employment Contract from his employer on 9 May 2008 and, one month later, on 3 June 2008 his yellow card arrived.Perhaps that Yellow Card should have been dated 7 May 2008, the date when it was required, or, at least this is what I consider normal to back up what is stated by the law.
    If there is an action plan towards improvement in this law we are contributing to it , too. /b]
     
  6. negrutxa

    negrutxa New Member

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    Merci mult georgiv pentru raspunsul tau.

    Asteptam si alte sesizari !
     
  7. dst

    dst Member

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    Let me understand this then.

    People register for an NVQ course of which there is a significant work element.

    At the end of this course they believe that as they have been working in the UK for a year that they are entitled to work without restriction?
     
  8. georgiv

    georgiv New Member

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    yes, after 12 months in which you work legal you can ask a blue card from Home Office and with this card you don't have any restrictions. But they start to number since you have yellow card, and to get YC you have to be a student, and to be a student with NVQ2 in healthcare you have to work first. The law is not god
     
  9. dst

    dst Member

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    My understanding of the issue is the following:

    1. An NVQ is a study course with a work based element. This allows you to work more than the 20 hours/week that applies to the regular student visa, but the Visa you are granted is still a student visa.

    2. Work undertaken on a student visa does not count toward gaining a blue card - you are here as a student, not as a worker.

    3. Having gained an NVQ qualification this may make you eligible for skill shortage jobs but you would still have to apply for these jobs under general immigration rules.

    The opening post suggests that these problems have arisen recently, so I need some examples of people that have not had these problems.

    This also sounds like a continuation of the issue from May last year when many people received a letter saying the HO had closed a loophole in the rules

     
  10. taranu

    taranu New Member

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    dst a scris:
    Maybe this can help you:

    Blue Registration Certificates
    These certificates indicate that the holder can work in the UK without restrictions.. Blue Registration Certificates are issued to Romanian and Bulgarian nationals who are highly skilled, or are exempt from the requirement to obtain an Accession worker card (see
    paragraphs 6-9 below).

    Exemption from the worker authorisation requirement
    6. If you are exempt from worker authorisation and want to be employed here, you will not need to obtain a work authorisation document. As someone who is exempt, you will be able to take employment without restriction. You can obtain confirmation of this right by applying for a blue registration certificate (but this is not compulsory). Paragraph 7 of this guidance will tell you whether you can work here without restriction. Paragraphs 30-31 will advise you which application form you need in order to apply for a blue registration certificate.
    7. You will be exempt from the requirement to obtain authorisation to work in the United
    Kingdom if:
    • you have been working with permission, and without interruption, in the United Kingdom for a period of 12 months ending on or after 31 December 2006. For instance, you are already present in the United Kingdom as a work permit holder or in some other category that confers permission to take employment (for example as a student and you have been in part-time employment continuously for 12 months);

    http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... omania0408
     
  11. taranu

    taranu New Member

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    dst a scris:
    My dear dst, i think here you are a little misunderstanding: romanians and bulgarians are european citizen too, like spanish, german, french, italian or even british.
    So, we don`t need visa or student visa we are living in 2009 :D almost 3 years since Romania joined EU.

    All these tings is about some restrictions on the labour market in UK and that`s all, nothing more.

    If Romania is pretty good market for british banks or british investors (only in retail), UK is good too for romanians. And I think is fair enough in this way.

    I`m sure you get my point ;)
     
  12. dst

    dst Member

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    I understand that as a student you are exercising treaty rights and so you can be a student in any EU country, but the yellow card you need as a student is still a worker visa for which you have to apply. A Pole or German student would not need a yellow card. A yellow card is a separate status but one that first requires you to be a student.

    It surprises me that time accrued while working on a yellow card would count as part of 12 months continuous employment because you are primarily a student, not an employee, and certainly not a full time one. This could simply be a loophole that is now closed.

    Even with a favourable reading of yellow card employment, if the period of work you undertake is less than 12 continuous months - even if it is 11 months and 29 days - you would not meet the 12 month test.
     
  13. georgiv

    georgiv New Member

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    we miss just 2 days because the college crash, soo they reject our documents for blue
     
  14. georgiv

    georgiv New Member

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    De aceea am si zis ca dk se face ceva pentru a se imbunatatii legea se poate lua in considerare cazul nostru.
    Acum l-am inscris pe sotul meu la un alt colegiu acreditat. Iar la anul cand o sa aplicam din nou ce ar trebui sa fac, cu o luna inainte de termenul legal de 1 an sa-i iau pe toti acasa la mine (pe cei de la colegiu), sa fiu sigura ca nu declara si astia faliment! :unsure:
     
  15. silverfern

    silverfern New Member

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    I'm sorry, I forgot to translate a part of my first post.

    First of all, Romanians don't need a student visa, but a registration certificate(yellow card) as European citizens exercising a treaty right as a student. As a NVQ student a Romanian student can work full time as part of their course. Any legal work count toward gaining a blue card, including part time work as a student, or full time work as a NVQ student. The blue card is issued based of a period of 12 months of legal employment in UK. That's the law.

    The situation that appeared recently is this: an education provider, accredited, was offering NVQ courses. Since June 2009, seems that this provider doesn't exist anymore, and the students were taken by another provider who is not accredited. This situation makes the students not to be "qualified persons" according to the law and take advantage of the student rights(in the NVQ case working full time), because the law says that the provider must be accredited. So suddenly these students were working illegally. This is one part of the problem.
    Then some students started to work before getting a registration certificate, which is illegal according to the paragraph of the law quoted in the first post. But I understand that on the UKBA website they were saying that the students must have started the work placement before issuing a yellow card. Then they say that you have to start the course before they issue the yellow card. And if the NVQ course means that you have to start working as part of the course from the first day those students are working illegally until they get the card. I don't know exactly what is the structure of a NVQ course, so I was hoping that maybe someone know something about it.
    Some students found out too late about the problems with the providers, the HO delayed processing applications, they didn't had the time to enroll at another accredited provider and continue their student status, and legal employment, so they have to start over the process of working for 12 months for getting a blue card. If they were enrolling at another course at an accredited provider, in 30 days from the date the initial provider ceased to exist, they didn't had to wait another 12 months, because you could have a break in legal employment no more that 30 days to qualify for the 12 months period, but not at the beginning or end of that period.

    I hope that it's more clear now. This is the situation as I see it from the discussions on the forum. As negrutxa said, those who are involved could give some details better than me.

    About the issue from last year, I don't think it's fair to say that everybody is enrolling for a NVQ course simply for having the right to work. Some of them worked in the same field in Romania and are gaining some new qualifications(and not equal or lower qualifications), some of them are learning some new procedures. So maybe politically they could say that the PRINCIPAL PURPOSE is working, but how can they prove it? We are trying to play by the rules, but when the rules have some faults we want to help fixing them, if someone want to listen. I'm sure that nobody is happy spending time and money with this kind of problems. And I'm sorry to say it but the restrictions regulations for Bulgarians and Romanians were faulty from the beginning, and only caused spending more time and money at the HO.
     
  16. silverfern

    silverfern New Member

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    dst a scris:
    DST let's look it this way: as a self employed person you are exercising a treaty right, you don't need a yellow card(you can get one only if you want to). As a student you are exercising a treaty right, why do you need a yellow card? It's not enough a student ID and only if you want to, you can get a yellow card too? Because a student is not a worker as you try to tell us, right?

    You could be surprised, but not all the students can afford to pay the living cost, or even the tuition fees. So they have to work, part time or full time. If they work they pay taxes, right? So why it's wrong that the period of employment as a student to be considered for the blue card?
     
  17. anouka

    anouka Active Member

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    Ok, my turn.
    Hello dst.My name is Ana and as many others I have the same problem, I have been refused by Home Office for the reason that UKBA was not satisfied that I have been working legally in the UK without interruption for a period of 12 months ending on or after 31 December 2006.
    I came here on 17th of March 2008 with a contract of employment and I started working on 23rd of March 2008.On the same day I was enrolled to do a NVQ 2 and 3 training with Precision Training - this course it's work related.
    On the 2nd of June 2008 I have been issued, based on the fact that I was a student, a Yellow Registration Certificate. This certificate states that students may, without separate work authorization work full time if he is following a course of vocational training and is working as a part of that training, which is my case. This Certificate has been issued due to the fact that on the 23th of March 2008 I have started a NVQ level II and III in Health and Social Care with Precision Training.

    On the 14th of May 2009 I have applied for a Blue Registration Certificate confirming that I am exempt from the requirement to obtain a work authorization because I have been working with permission and without interruption, in the United Kingdom for a period of 12 months ending on or after 31 December 2006.
    Along with my application dated 14.05.2009 for a Blue Registration Certificate I have submitted evidence of my employment with Swan Care Partnership (payslips for the period comprised between 18.04.2008 and 15.05.2009), letter from my employer stating that I am their employee and that I am continuing my NVQ training. Following to this application I have received a letter, dated 09.06.2009, asking me to prove that I have completed already my NVQ level II and III and also to provide a contact number for Precision Training. On the 15.06.2009 I have replied to this letter, via recorded post, explaining that due to company reorganization my NVQ training has been temporarily stalled. To this, I have attached a letter, from a company called Aspire Training, in which it was explained to me that Precision Training went into liquidation and has been taken over by new management and as part of the contract, learners have been transferred from Precision Training to Aspire Training.
    In order to prove my attendance to the training course I attached Assessment Plans for 09.07.2008, 29.07.2008, 27.02.2009 , 09.03.2009, 27.04.2009 .
    Letter from employer confirming a last meeting with Precision Training assessor in May 2009.

    Notethat in May 2009,when I have had my last assessment, I already had 14 months of working and training .

    Based on the facts described above and since:
    - I have complied with the Law, by attending the course and continuing my NVQ training, (the delays in completing the training are due to no fault of myself and the employer is now proceeding to undertaking our NVQ training with another college);
    - the Law does not require to complete the course of study in order to issue a Blue Registration Certificate, as some courses might take years to complete. (Please note the training I'm undertaking is an NVQ level II and III, work related course and it is normal to take sometimes longer than a year to complete. That without any delays caused by the training provider, as it our case here with Precision Training company.);
    - I have proved with documents that I have been working with permission and without interruption, in the United Kingdom for a period of 12 months ending on or after 31 December 2006

    If you will have a look on Silverfern's note- As we all know, for obtaining a yellow card as a student you must start the course first, but since the work placement is part of that course, that means you will work illegally until the card is issued. More than that, a few months ago on the UKBA website they were saying that in order to obtain the yellow card you must start the work placement first. So they were advise you to work illegally. you will see that the problem started from here.
    I have started working in 23th of March 2008, yellow card was issued on 02.06.2008 but UKBA will consider that I have been working legally from the date the yellow card was issued...how is this possible?
    So for just 1 day I have been refused- cause Precision Training was in liquidation starting 01.06.2009- but since I have started working on 23th of March 2008 since May 2009-the date of my last assessment with them I have been on training and legally working for 14 months.
    So...sorry for the long post and for any grammatical mistakes.

    Ah, and another thing,in the same conditions like as 2 of our colleagues have applied for the blue card and Home Office approved and have issued this certificate for them...The law is not the same for everybody????

    Cheers and thank you very much that you are trying to do something for all of us
     
  18. negrutxa

    negrutxa New Member

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    Thank you all for your input. :kiss:

    David, your dedication is, as usual, much appreciated. After bringing a couple of examples as per the below messages, I hope it is more clear now what the issue is and how the law is confusing and inconsistent, even misleading I would add.
     
  19. dst

    dst Member

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    silverfern a scris:
    Of course most students will need to earn money while they study, and this is why they are granted permissions to work in the UK even if they would usually be subject to worker restrictions because of their nationality - a Brazilian or an American student also has a right to work while they study.

    As Romanians are also subject to worker restrictions they have to apply for a yellow card, and this is granted so long as they prove their student status. You will also remember that the law had to be amended because as originally drafted A2 students were being treated less fairly following accession than they were prior to accession.

    The process of getting a yellow card does seem to be taking too long, and this is creating particular problems for A2s in some circumstances.

    What surprised me was not that they want or need to work, but that work undertaken during their period as a student counts toward 12 months continuous employment for Blue Card purposes. If you are working on a self-employed basis, also exercising Treaty rights, you do not gain the right to a Blue Card after 1 year. A distinction is made between self-employed and employed workers, and although both have the right to work in the UK, the legal basis on which this right is established is not the same in both cases.

    My instinct was that students would be treated in a similar way to the self-employed as they are both exercising Treaty Rights. It surprises me that they, apparently, are not. This is certainly to the advantage of A2s, but I am concerned that this interpretation could be subject to sudden change as happened last year in the example cited above.

    This particular discussion, however, is a side issue to the specific problem at hand now - the transfer of student registration between colleges. I will think about this a little and post about it later today.
     
  20. negrutxa

    negrutxa New Member

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    There are two main issues that need to be adressed:

    De la Silverfern citire:

    1.
    This is a legislation issue, needs to be clarified on the particular NVQ courses. We could add a list with the negative impact caused, seen from different perspectives that can show that not only us, the applicants are affected!


    2.
    This seems to be an internal procedure issue that could be successfully addressed i believe. They must treat each application as an individual case and analyse the circumstances, the evidence and so on before reaching a decision.
     

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