DST
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« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2008, 03:13:32 PM » |
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The policy line seems clear enough, but it seems that guidance is not being followed
As regards the policy on spouses I need to hear from people who have been affected - both those who have been told they need a Blue Certificate and those that have been told they do not.
Also, the policy seems a little impractical. I presume you still have to demonstrate you are married to a self-employed A2 national. This places an added administrative burden on Ro & Buls that other EU nationals would not face. I am sure the bureaucracy and delay involved here will stop some people taking jobs.
Is there any difference in experience between spouses and partners?
We can get a clarification on the policy in a written answer in Parliament, try to have the Home Office call centre script updated and also hit the HR trade publications to spread the knowledge this way.
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Ella36
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« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2008, 09:29:53 AM » |
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Hello, DST.
Thank you for all your help. It's good to know we have such a kind and true friend.
Do you have any information about Home Office refusing to issue Registration Certificates to Romanians and Bulgarians enrolled on sandwich courses? Some of our forum members have complained today that they were told by the agencies that Home Office stopped this programmes for Romanians and Bulgarians, though there are a lot of people who have already paid for this courses and even started to work while waiting for their Registration Certificate application to be processed. Is this information true?
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DST
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« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2008, 11:17:32 AM » |
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Ella36
I would need more detail on this issue.
What I am aware of is that there are various disreputable organisations claiming to arrange study/work placements.
The HO needs to be satisfied that the course in question is genuine in order for it to issue the necessary documentation. It could be that it has decided certain courses are not. I don't see how the HO could introduce a blanket ban on all A2's.
Anyway, without fuller details of individuals' experiences I cannot really comment.
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Ella36
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« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2008, 11:24:17 AM » |
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This is the letter that one of the students enrolled on a sandwich course has received: Bulgarian and Romanian nationals on vocational courses in UK
I am writing to inform you about a change to the way in which applications for Bulgarian and Romanian students on work-based,vocational training courses will be processed.
We have consulted our lawyers on this matter and we believe that in the majority of cases,a person undertaking a work placement leading to a National VocationalQualification(NVQ) is not a student for the purposes of the Accession(immigration and Worker Authorisation)Regulations 2006.
In order to qualify for a registration certificate as a student,we must be satisfied that the applicant is enrolled with an approved education or training provided for the PRINCIPAL PURPOSE of following a course of study.NVQs are work-related,competence-based qualifications,and in most cases we consider the principal purpose for undertaking a NVQ to be one of work rather than study.All student applications currently under consideration will be assessed on this basis.
Furthermore,we have contacted the NCFE regarding the Level 2 Employment Skills qualification and we understand that this qualification does not require a wor placement.A work placement would be regarded as useful for students to complete some of the units,but the NCFE confirmed that a placement of one week would be sufficient.We therefore consider that those people enrolled on the Professional English Programme are in the United kingdom for the principal purpose of wor,not study.
Bulgarian and Romanian nationals coming to the UK for the principal purpose of work experience can apply through the Training and Work Experience (TWES) aspect of the work permit arrangements.The TWES arrangements enable Bulgarian and Romanian nationals to undertake work-based trainig for a professional or specialist qualification,or a period of work experience.
The letterhead is : HO-Uk Border Agency,UK Border Agency,Bulgaria and Romania Casework,PO BOX4160,SHEFFIELD,S1 9DZ, 9 may 2008. The letter is addressed to Ms Joanne Sayer from Twin College and signed by DAVID RAMSBOTHAM,ASSISTANT DIRECTOR MANAGED MIGRATION UK BORDER AGENCY. We are still in doubt if this is an official document and the Home Office point of view about sandwich courses or is a way for the placement agencies to solve their problems in a very odd way? |
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Ella36
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« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2008, 11:28:40 AM » |
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There are 2 members online now who are waiting for a yellow card: mona82 (she copied the letter) and vali28. Also, a few hours ago, Adrian Ionut Roncea (adyta83) posted and told us that he has received a similar letter.
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DST
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« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2008, 11:53:58 AM » |
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In order to qualify for a registration certificate as a student,we must be satisfied that the applicant is enrolled with an approved education or training provided for the PRINCIPAL PURPOSE of following a course of study. This point in the Home Office letter is perfectly reasonable. A student worker visa is for students first and foremost, not for those seeking a means to work. Some will have seen this as a potential loophole to get some worker rights, but the HO is entitled to block those it believes are exploiting a loophole. The issue might be one of notice and timing. Is the HO acting fairly in making an unannounced apparent change in its interpretation of rules? So if someone in Romania were to apply for a course today could they reasonably be expected to be aware of that the HO is now interpreting its rules as the letter indicates. Where there is an inadequate attempt to publicise and notify a rule change then the HO might be held to have acted unlawfully. But this is not necessarily a policy change. You can argue the HO is not being unreasonable because its' student visa policy was always primarily about study, so the framework to refuse applicants was always in place - i.e. there is no policy change. I'd say that this is something that in the first instance needs to be raised with the Labour attache at the Embassy. The underlying problem is that the worker restrictions make A2 nationals vulnerable to exploitation by people apparently offering a way to gain work entitlement. But the principle of 'caveat emptor' - let the buyer beware - applies. Something may be offered, but it isn't necessarily a product that will work as the buyer has been led to believe. |
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Ella36
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« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2008, 01:20:38 PM » |
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Thank you, DST, for your time, understanding and prompt answer.
There is still hope that those who have already paid for the courses and applied for a registration certificate won't be affected by the change (of course, providing that the information in the letter is genuine and is not a 'caveat emptor' case). Surely on Monday Home Office will be able to give more details. We have to wait until then, I guess.
We wish you a nice and relaxing weekend.
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adyta83
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« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2008, 08:08:03 AM » |
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Hi there DST my name is Adrian Roncea and I am one of the students attending the course when HO decided that all sandwich course programmes should be stopped. My belief is most and foremost that they acted without pror official notice,and not undertaking an official chanel of response. What I'm saying is that HO should have underlined an official deadline in which such officiall institutions that were legally entitled to do such courses,to be able to stop all future contracts otherwise people like me found themselves in a study/work programe wich was ilegal. Now maybe I should have had this notice a week ago when I started the programme because I already paid for it,but now that I was caught in this while attending the programme I'm left wondering if I am going to receive all my money back  Furthermore I think that all of this is consequence of Mr Gordon Brown party loosing the local elections  |
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To live for nothing does'nt necessarily mean that you stand for anything =))
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DST
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« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2008, 09:28:48 AM » |
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Adrian
It is regrettable that you - and others - find themselves in the situation described. However, as I noted in my previous post above, there isnt necessarily a change in policy here, and so whether the HO has a duty to notify applicants is less clear.
Certainly it is important that this knowledge is now shared widely, and I would like to see the Embassy taking a more active role in this.
Looking at the issue neutrally, if the HO notices a new pattern of
applicants from particular countries apply for particular types of course, then it does suggest a loophole is being exploited. It is not unreasonable that the HO would want to close this off.
The problem is with the system of worker restrictions as a whole which encourages people to look for ways around the regime, and often leads people to pay fees for 'solutions' which may or may not be viable.
I would encourage people to send me a private message telling me how you heard about these courses and whether there was a service provider assisting you with your application.
As to your other point, many of the changes to the immigration system that have been introduced recently will have been planned for sometime. It is part of a broader attempt by Labour to be seen as tough on immigration. Certainly this is for political purposes, but it is not a sudden reaction to the local election results.
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« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 09:37:00 AM by DST »
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adyta83
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« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2008, 11:51:47 AM » |
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Well first of all,when I first decided to take this step I made sure that the college in which I enlisted was authorized and did'nt have any complaints from the Home Office and I thaught that in hospitality training,the best one was TwinUk but unfortunately as I found out 2 days ago,this was not the case |
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To live for nothing does'nt necessarily mean that you stand for anything =))
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mona82
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« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2008, 03:49:47 PM » |
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Hello,dear DST,we(me and my husband) are here also with the Twin,and we didn't know that its an exploatation of the Law...Every agency sell this programme as a perfectly legal way to come and work in the UK,and to get a diploma also.So,not their customers is to blame,becouse I can asure you,that none of use knows the english laws so good...But we are going to suffer the consequences of this,not the Twin,Etci or other so named study-center...
We only paid for come legally in the UK ,and to have the legal rights to work...Thats why in our country the programme is named work and travel...
Thank you for your patient and I hope you could understand my english
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Negrutxa
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« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2008, 03:59:54 PM » |
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 Please see below details of the responsible attache in our Romanian Embassy in London. LABOUR & SOCIAL AFFAIRS SECTION Mr Bogdan CARPA-VECHE, attaché Tel: 020 7937.8125 Fax: 020 7937.8069 e-mail: social_affairs@roemb.co.uk
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DST
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« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2008, 04:43:43 PM » |
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Hello,dear DST,we(me and my husband) are here also with the Twin,and we didn't know that its an exploatation of the Law...Every agency sell this programme as a perfectly legal way to come and work in the UK,and to get a diploma also.So,not their customers is to blame,becouse I can asure you,that none of use knows the english laws so good...But we are going to suffer the consequences of this,not the Twin,Etci or other so named study-center...
We only paid for come legally in the UK ,and to have the legal rights to work...Thats why in our country the programme is named work and travel...
Thank you for your patient and I hope you could understand my english
Unfortunately your post highlights the issue here. Although I am sure you applied for the course with honest intentions, the main purpose of the course appears to be work rather than study. This is the reason the HO are now rejecting applications. I believe you have been exploited and this exploitation has occurred both because of the worker restrictions, and because some organisations will try to take advantage of people by promising them worker rights but not being able to deliver this. |
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adyta83
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« Reply #58 on: May 11, 2008, 08:08:15 PM » |
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well DST maybe you misunderstood,we were not supose to come here with full work rights but only sor a limited period of time and in areas which are of no interest even for the polish population in this country. For example I was suposed to undertake my training in a remote area in wales or scotland where hotels have remained understaffed and during summer in holidays there was'nt anyone to hire because no one wants to work on the minimum wage in a forsaken land  |
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DST
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« Reply #59 on: May 11, 2008, 09:14:00 PM » |
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well DST maybe you misunderstood,we were not supose to come here with full work rights but only sor a limited period of time and in areas which are of no interest even for the polish population in this country. For example I was suposed to undertake my training in a remote area in wales or scotland where hotels have remained understaffed and during summer in holidays there was'nt anyone to hire because no one wants to work on the minimum wage in a forsaken land I understand, but this is not how the Home Office sees it. It does not matter where the location of the job is, but rather that they see you as coming to the UK for the principal reason of working. They are saying that the study element of the course is insufficient to count as a study course and so it should not be eligible for student worker rights status i.e. they think that the main purpose of those applying for this course is to work part time, not to study. It doesnt matter if you are honest and want to work hard. They are saying only that people on these courses are not students and therefore they cannot be granted the same rights as students. But this is a problem created by the system of worker restrictions which I think should be removed |
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